Scarlet For Beginners

[Jeff Kilgroe]

So 50 mm is always 50 mm and it always gives the same focal lenght and field/angle of view. There is one problem though. A 1/3 image sensor camera would with its 5,5mm lens produce incredibly "tunnel view" type of images. Where the background always looks unnaturally far away. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Focal_length.jpg That is however not the case with my canon xl2.

A 50mm focal length is always a 50mm focal length. Field/Angle of view is determined by both the focal length and the size of the imager/sensor. The tunnel view effect is a property of lens distortion. Wide lenses (short focal lengths) display more spherical distortion as the FOV or coverage area increases. It is much easier to create lenses with less distortion if they have small coverage areas. So a 5.5mm designed to cover Super35 would be a severe fisheye and this focal length would not even be possible to cover FF35 without further optical correction and intentional distortion to artificially extend coverage.

However, a 1/3" imager is typically about 5mm wide. This is about 20% of the width of Super35 or less than 14% of full frame. That is a significant crop of the image area produced by any focal length and much easier to produce smaller, less spherical optics with lower distortion.

A 50 mm lens is always 50 mm, but the angle of vision / perspective rendering depends on the size of the sensor.
5.5 mm on a 1/3" sensor is about the same angle of view / perspective as 50 mm on a 35 mm sensor / film.

Yep.

The standard 20X zoom used with the XL-2 is a 5.4-108mm. At 5.4mm, it has roughly the same FOV as a 50mm lens on a full frame camera. There is also the Wide XL zoom which is 3.4mm on the wide end, FF35 equivalent would be the same FOV as placing a 24mm on a FF camera.

 

[Nik Skjøth]

Right so then this statement is false. no?

So if you take a 50mm lens designed to cover FF35 and put it onto a camera with a 2/3" sensor, you will get the exact same image and FOV as you would if you used a 50mm lens designed to only cover a 2/3" sensor.

A 50mm lens on a 2/3" sensor would not produce the same FOV as on a FF35 sensor. It would "compress" the image much more and increase the size of the background..

Maybe Im getting it wrong here.. But dosnt FOV mean: Perspective? The relative distance between foregrond and background?

Sorry for hijacking the thread, but I find this quite important, since Im planing on getting both a 2/3" and S35, and they should be able to work in the same shoot as A and B cam.

EDIT: Oops.. I just realized that you never actually mentioned the FOV being the same on different sensors.. only that lenses designed for different sensors would look the same. My bad..

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Yeah, I probably could have articulated that better. Another way to look at it is that a 50mm mini prime, a 50mm Nikon, a 50mm RPP, 50mm Master Prime, etc.. Will all give the exact same FOV on a 2/3" Scarlet.

On the RED One or other S35 camera, they will all give the same FOV again, but that FOV would be larger than on the 2/3" Scarlet because of the larger sensor. And the 2/3" mini prime would most likely not cover the entire sensor and would vignette.

On a Full Frame camera, only the Nikon 50mm in the example would cover the sensor, the RPP and MP would vignette. The 2/3" mini would probably display its full image circle, which could be fun for effect.

 

[Nik Skjøth]

Right. So it all falls into place..

Could be handy to have some kind of tablet, calculating which focal lengths transfer between sensor sizes to maintain equal FOV.
Especially since you can crop the sensor on red, you'd want to know where the 2K crop is compared to the full 3 or 5K

 

[David Rasberry]

Right. So it all falls into place..

Could be handy to have some kind of tablet, calculating which focal lengths transfer between sensor sizes to maintain equal FOV.
Especially since you can crop the sensor on red, you'd want to know where the 2K crop is compared to the full 3 or 5K

Posted an Excel spreadsheet that does exactly that for a selection of common formats.

http://www.scarletuser.com/showthread.php?t=3958

 

[Aaron Cheater]

Thanks for your replies David and Brian. From your answers, I have thought up another question for clarifying.

Does anyone know how much battery life the battery module gives you over the side handle's batteries? Just trying to decide whether I should get the battery module when I need to get the side handle anyway in order to be able to control the camera. I thought the LCD touch screen would give you access to all the controls you would need to use it?

Also, the answer to my question about whether I would need to get the electronic mounts for the different lenses ... since i want to start using the red mini-primes I would need the red electronic mount? Sorry if this seems like a stupid and obvious question but I just wanted to clarify.

This may seem like another stupid question, but assuming that Red don't release a stand alone zoom lens for the Scarlet and if I can only afford a couple of the red mini-primes to start off with which ones would be a good starting point? Even after all this talk of focal lengths and everything I'm still confused about it all.

So from the information I have been given here already this is the starting setup I am thinking of:

Scarlet Brain
2.8" LCD touchscreen
Side Handle or Battery Module
SSD Module
Module Adapter
Electronic Red Mount
Red Mini-Prime Lenses

The fixed scarlet would be perfect if it wasn't for the fixed lens!

 

[Bryce O]

A 50 mm lens is always 50 mm, but the angle of vision / perspective rendering depends on the size of the sensor.
5.5 mm on a 1/3" sensor is about the same angle of view / perspective as 50 mm on a 35 mm sensor / film.
David

The thing I've never understood about FOV is that my Xh-a1, and other 1/3" cameras, always looked flat. I knew I was shooting the equivalent of 50mm, but it had no depth to it. What happens to the aperture during this cropping? Would you "theoretically" need an aperture of f 0.05 if you were shooting 5.5mm on a 1/3" sensor to match the FOV and DOF of a 50mm on APS-C at 1.8?

 

[David Rasberry]

Scarlet 2/3" Sensor Spec(ulation)

Scarlet 2/3" Sensor Spec(ulation)

Slight advantage to Scarlet S35 (no FF35 Scarlet) at 3K due to pixel size and sensor size (5.4 micron pixels vs. 3.3 micron). But the 2/3" performs incredibly well for a 2/3" sensor. Incredibly well... did I say that?

Jim

Based on a pixel size of 3.3 microns and the original October 2008 posted specs of 3072 x 1620 4.9 megapixel 1.89:1 widescreen format, this is what Scarlet's new sensor may look like for active image area.

 

[Itinerant]

Rocket vs Decklink (or similar)

Rocket vs Decklink (or similar)

Hi all,

Thought I might piggyback on all this fantastic q&a with a query or two of my own. I understand all the discussion about image area and so on, but my interest is in workflow. What are the file formats for this footage, and what will the different options be for getting them into a program like FCP?

Say, for example, that I want to shoot 3K on a Scarlet 2/3". If my understanding is correct, that means a data rate of 42mb/sec, yielding a whopping 2.5 gb for each minute of video, or over 150 gb per hour. Wow! That's great, because it'll be such beautiful quality, but what sort of interface (ie hardware) is necessary to process that much data? I've read a lot about products like the Red Rocket, Red Rocket Breakout box, and 3rd party ones like Black Magic Design's Decklink, but my understanding falters here. My impression is that I could use something like a PCI-e card (decklink) to play uncompressed (unproxied) HD back from FCP onto an HD monitor. Yes? Ok, so where does a breakout box come into play? Also, are these ways to get the video into the computer? As in, can I run HDMI or something like that from a Red I/O module to a decklink card to import the video, or what else would you use? Firewire? eSata?

Finally, what the heck kind of RAM am I going to need in my MacPro to edit this stuff!?!? (that's more of a rhetorical question).

Thanks everyone for your illumination!

 

[Stephen Gentle]

Hi all,

Thought I might piggyback on all this fantastic q&a with a query or two of my own. I understand all the discussion about image area and so on, but my interest is in workflow. What are the file formats for this footage, and what will the different options be for getting them into a program like FCP?

Say, for example, that I want to shoot 3K on a Scarlet 2/3". If my understanding is correct, that means a data rate of 42mb/sec, yielding a whopping 2.5 gb for each minute of video, or over 150 gb per hour. Wow! That's great, because it'll be such beautiful quality, but what sort of interface (ie hardware) is necessary to process that much data? I've read a lot about products like the RED Rocket™™, RED Rocket™™ Breakout box, and 3rd party ones like Black Magic Design's Decklink, but my understanding falters here. My impression is that I could use something like a PCI-e card (decklink) to play uncompressed (unproxied) HD back from FCP onto an HD monitor. Yes? Ok, so where does a breakout box come into play? Also, are these ways to get the video into the computer? As in, can I run HDMI or something like that from a Red I/O module to a decklink card to import the video, or what else would you use? Firewire? eSata?

Finally, what the heck kind of RAM am I going to need in my MacPro to edit this stuff!?!? (that's more of a rhetorical question).

Thanks everyone for your illumination!

All RED cameras shoot REDCODE RAW files. There's no need for any kind of card in the editing process - you can even do it on a laptop if you want to. The cameras shoot on Compact Flash cards (8GB or 16GB currently, 32GB in the future), the RED-DRIVE (which is a 640GB RAID) or RED-RAM (a high capacity flash memory device). There will also be a solid state drive option.

You ingest footage by copying the files from the media onto your computer. You could do it over HDMI or something, but you'd be throwing away a lot of resolution and the flexibility that REDCODE gives you. So just use a Compact Flash reader, or if you use a drive option, I think they have USB and Firewire 800 (and maybe eSata? Not sure about that one).

If you're using Final Cut, you have the option either to transcode the footage to ProRes or to use the native files (which takes quite a bit more CPU power). You won't need a massive amount of RAM - you could probably get away with 4GB on a laptop, but you'd probably want more like 8GB at least on a desktop.

Using the CPU to decode the footage can be quite time consuming, so if you want to speed up transcodes to real-time, you have the option of getting the RED Rocket™ card, but it's completely optional. The breakout box for the RED Rocket™ just gives you some more connection options.

Oh, and by the way, forum rules say you need your full real name - best put it in your signature so the mods can change it for you.

 

[Itinerant]

Thanks for the info - much appreciated. Does FCP require any sort of plugin in order to be able to handle the red files? Also, is any quality or resolution lost by transcoding to Prores?

Could you elaborate a little on how a capture card can speed up the decoding of the footage - is it more or less another processor, dedicated solely to capturing footage?

Thanks so much!

 

[M Carter]

Joining the thread of newbie-red questions - I do a lot of work that's just for web output, and I want to go Scarlet for DOF, improved keying and slow motion frame rates. As a way to quickly get shooting/editing as I jump into the red learning curve (& hardware requirements) is there a way to take red footage and quickly convert it (hopefully via batch processing) to, say, a 720p format with good color depth that will hold up to grading and can be edited with little or no rendering time? Or can such footage be shot natively if I'm confident I won't want full-red quality for a given project in the future?

And, question two - I plan to eventually become versed in the "right way" of using red footage, and I'm wondering about proxy files - what's the workflow to, say, take a large number of shots through AE for effects work? I know I can use proxies in FCP with basic edits/transitions (and I assume I can then render that edit out at full res)... what's the best workflow when a good percentage of a project takes a trip or two through AE during the overall editing process?

Thanks for any replies.

 

[David Rasberry]

Joining the thread of newbie-red questions - I do a lot of work that's just for web output, and I want to go Scarlet for DOF, improved keying and slow motion frame rates. As a way to quickly get shooting/editing as I jump into the red learning curve (& hardware requirements) is there a way to take red footage and quickly convert it (hopefully via batch processing) to, say, a 720p format with good color depth that will hold up to grading and can be edited with little or no rendering time? Or can such footage be shot natively if I'm confident I won't want full-red quality for a given project in the future?

And, question two - I plan to eventually become versed in the "right way" of using red footage, and I'm wondering about proxy files - what's the workflow to, say, take a large number of shots through AE for effects work? I know I can use proxies in FCP with basic edits/transitions (and I assume I can then render that edit out at full res)... what's the best workflow when a good percentage of a project takes a trip or two through AE during the overall editing process?

Thanks for any replies.

I think the best approach in the near future will be to edit and correct Red footage in its native raw format, then encode and scale it to the output format you need for distribution. This should be as seamless and direct an approach as finishing for any other video format with better end results. It will however require decent processing power and storage space.

 

[M Carter]

Thanks -

So, between "edit and correct native" and "decent processing power"... are we talking additional external or pci hardware - or a fairly recent Mac Pro? And does that mean bypassing the proxy workflow?

My situation is often working very, very fast - and often adding footage in the midst of an edit. It's very often I'll jump over to the studio side for still & motion items, render something in 3D, tweak a music track in ProTools, all because an idea or change came to me while editing. Right now, I can grab footage in the studio side, and just drop it in in seconds - and creatively, it's kind of spine-shivering awesome to be able to do that - to jump between the computer and the studio and not slow down. To me, the cameras, lights, music composition software, guitars, AE, Photoshop - it's all "one" instrument... trying to keep close to that flow while updating my motion content.

 

[David Rasberry]

Any of the recent Intel based Mac pros should be pretty adequate. Certainly with Adobe, proxy workflow should be a thing of the past when CS5 is released. From the demos it looks like with a decent Nvidia Quadro GPU real time native editing including FX previews without rendering should be possible. Then there is always RED Rocket™ too.

It is truly amazing what one can do on a desktop these days isn't it?

 

[M Carter]

Hey, thanks - (I've posted questions like this before, some with my "not real name" account that got deleted) and never got an answer, I really appreciate it.

Red Rocket - there's the rub for me, pricey!!! What I'm hoping I can do is native editing, fast & streamlined, but I'll be fine with 720-1080p sizes. Just haven't been happy with the current "HD" stuff as far as color depth, sharpness, frame rates (such as the HVX, etc).

For instance, I love what I can do as far as esoteric motion graphic stuff with my D90 rig - pretty, pretty sort of mojo... but god, that compression. Switching to Canon DSLR video will cost the same as a scarlet, and I won't get the features like high frame rates, etc.

Give me a couple months with red and I'll be using all the bells & whistles, but man, I really hope I can jump into using it with a workflow close to what I have now - I am an oddball to some extent with my particular needs, but it pays the bills without a "real" job. (I'm not a kid trying to make zombie flicks, I've been a commercial still shooter for 15 years, lot of national brands in my portfolio, bla bla bla, but I do some cool "niche" stuff for the web, & that's where my heart is).

 

[Vincent Grippi]

Thank you so much for this! Very informative!

 

[Spencer Black]

Basic Package

Basic Package

Thanks for the info, my work is looking to purchase a Scarlett s35 when it becomes available. To start out this budget year I am looking to price out a package with bare minimum components/modules so it run out of the bag. Other than an LCD touchscreen, Battery Pack, Module Adapter, and Side CF module, are there any other essentials I must have? We will likely be using Nikon or Canon glass so the adapter is a must. I know the price sheet for the Scarlet as it stands now is likely to change, I just need to get a ball park estimate with the minimum gear requrements.

 

[Felix van Oost]

Thanks for the info, my work is looking to purchase a Scarlett s35 when it becomes available. To start out this budget year I am looking to price out a package with bare minimum components/modules so it run out of the bag. Other than an LCD touchscreen, Battery Pack, Module Adapter, and Side CF module, are there any other essentials I must have? We will likely be using Nikon or Canon glass so the adapter is a must. I know the price sheet for the Scarlet as it stands now is likely to change, I just need to get a ball park estimate with the minimum gear requrements.

I think you need either a REDMote or Side Handle too, which have the buttons neccessary to control the camera.

 

[Spencer Black]

Thanks Felix, I'll add that to the list