Scarlet For Beginners

[Steve Wake]

#21 Mystery and Missing Prime Lens

#21 Mystery and Missing Prime Lens

I've been lurking and salivating since the Announcement. There doesn't seem to be a lot of speculation about the special feature 21, but since I remember reading a post from Jarred that no one had it right, I'm taking my best shot.

Since this is a DSMC and I'm coming mostly from the world of still photography, and since I remember reading months ago that the plan was to have thousands of s-o-c-c-e-r m-o-m-s (I'm middle-aged and we've been through that stage so I don't go for the automatic substitution) buy the lowest end camera (fixed Scarlet) in order to subsidize the production of higher end cameras for more serious indies and other pros, it's pretty obvious what's missing from the fixed Scarlet: some form of image stabilization (IS). S-o-c-c-e-r m-o-m-s (and run and gun documentarians) need a camera they can handhold. Anyone using it for stills (and it should be usable - the Nikon D2H, which was usable for newspapers, was only 4MP - which is plenty for web use too) will also need IS since the max focal length is certain to be over 200mm (35mm/FF equivalent). Also, I haven't seen a spec on fastest shutter speed, but I doubt it's going to be fast enough to compensate for shake while panning handheld at the long end. With the fixed Scarlet lens/sensor combo being an integral unit, I'm sure the creative folks at RED could engineer (or already have engineered) a breakthrough that will make steadicams unnecessary. My video production dreams only extend as far as PBS POV documentaries - so this is all I ask.

The other mystery, coming from the still photography world, is the lack of what I would consider a "normal" 50mm equivalent lens in the mini prime lineup. They skip from 8mm to 16mm, or roughly from 32mm-equivalent to 64mm equivalent. Maybe this is normal in the film/video world, but it seems strange to me. So is there an ultrafast 12mm T1.2 lurking in the design rooms?

If I'm right about either of these can I get a discount on my Fixed Scarlet? If I'm right about both can I get a free Bomb EVF (and please change the name - we all know TSA in the US is humorless)? Anyway, idle speculation is one way to pass the time between now and June.

Steve

 

[Aaron Cheater]

I'm another total red and scarlet n00b, and while this thread has been very helpful there are still some questions I would like answered.

I plan on buying the 2/3 brain, but am a bit confused about what modules I would need to attach to make a fully working camera. I was originally going to buy an EX3, but then heard about these Scarlets, so I was wondering what I would need to make something that is comparable to it. Now I know that the EX3 is a 1/2 lens camera while the Scarlet is 2/3, so i'm not talking about that. I mean features like XLR inputs, memory card recording (or harddrive in the Scarlets case), things like that. If someone could also explain to me the difference between modules, such as the normal redmote vs the redmote pro, and the normal IO module vs the pro IO module, that would be great too.

All I seem to hear about on these forums is the mini-primes released by Red. But what about zoom lenses? Will Red be making their own like a detachable versions of the 8x released on the fixed scarlet or will I have to go with third party ones? I was hoping to get one similar to the one on the EX3 but obviously compatible with the Scarlet, and I only want to buy something very basic just to get me started.

Anyway, thanks in advance for any help and I apologize if any of these questions have been answered on this forum before.

 

[Michael Olsen]

First, I apologize for the lengthy delays. The past month has been very busy for me.

I'm another total red and scarlet n00b, and while this thread has been very helpful there are still some questions I would like answered.

Hi Aaron. I'm glad it was helpful and I'll do my best to answer your questions.

I was originally going to buy an EX3, but then heard about these Scarlets, so I was wondering what I would need to make something that is comparable to it. I mean features like XLR inputs, memory card recording (or harddrive in the Scarlets case), things like that.

I'll break it up into what I would consider a more barebones approach and one a little more capable.

Barebones:
2/3" Scarlet Brain
CF Card Module
CF Cards
Mini- to XLR adapter (2)
Side Handle
Batteries
EVF or LCD for monitoring
Lens(es)

Bigger Brother:
2/3" Scarlet Brain
1.8" SSD Module
SSD Dock
CF Cards
Dual Battery Rear Module
I/O Module
EVF or LCD for monitoring
Lens(es)

If someone could also explain to me the difference between modules, such as the normal redmote vs the redmote pro, and the normal IO module vs the pro IO module, that would be great too.

This is where conjecture begins to kick in for me.

REDMOTE Pro has a wireless follow focus ability.

pro I/O has full size XLR and AES Digital Audio input, single and dual link HD-SDI, normal has minis.

Will Red be making their own like a detachable versions of the 8x released on the fixed scarlet or will I have to go with third party ones?

I imagine RED will probably wait and see how many people adopt the mini-PL mount or use PL/Nikon/Canon/etc. If people really buy up the miniPrimes, I'd expect that we'd see a zoom pretty shortly. Perhaps not.

 

[David Rasberry]

Good zooms for B4 2/3" HD cameras start around $7k new. Used 16mm or S16mm zooms from a reputable dealer are a possibility too, from around $900 up. You can pick up used zooms off Ebay in C-mount or Arri B-mount pretty reasonably, typically around $200 up, with good looking examples in the $400-800 range depending on what it is. You take your chances on condition though and most of the ones I have bought so far could use routine cleaning an lubing by an optical shop, typically $500-900 service depending on the lens and condition, so figure that into your bid price. C-mount should be an available option for Scarlet, but Arri mount lenses will need to be converted to PL with an adapter that runs about $400 or so for the better ones.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

B4 mount lenses are definitely a consideration -- it will be interesting to see how many of the "HD" lenses out there can resolve for the 3K sensor.

Also keep in mind that optical correction of some sort will be necessary for B4 mount lenses. Currently that comes in the form of the B4 to PL adapter. That definitely will work for the Scarlet, but I'm also thinking that RED will probably offer a straight B4 mount for the camera that eliminates the PL mount and hopefully can also provide power for servo controls or other functions. Either way, the optics within the B4 adapter or mount will add some cost to this solution too.

I'm really hoping that in addition to the mini-primes that RED will offer one or two zooms for the 2/3" system.

I'm hoping that new CF options including the upcoming SATA-based C.Fast will hit the market in time for the new cameras. That should help with some of the media options. RED seems to have a plan for the 1.8" SSD as well.

 

[Barry Fontaine]

Lens questions

Lens questions

I am considering going with the Canon EF mount since I have some fast and expensive EF glass already. These should work on the 2/3 brain with some lens cropping (magnification) and closer to optimum coverage on the S35 Cinema and FF35. Correct?

All Professional 2/3" B4 ENG zoom lenses have built in back focus rings. Is there a back focus provided on the Canon EF or Nikon mounts made by Red, or is the mount set exactly to achieve accurate back focus?

Does Red have lenses for anything other than the 2/3" at the moment or in the plans?

 

[Michael Olsen]

I am considering going with the Canon EF mount since I have some fast and expensive EF glass already. These should work on the 2/3 brain with some lens cropping (magnification) and closer to optimum coverage on the S35 Cinema and FF35. Correct?

EF mount lenses will work on the 2/3" sensor with an adapter. They will definitely crop. But cropping is not the same as magnification (i.e. longer lens). Instead, your frame will simply be composed of the central portion of the projected image - you lose field of view.

I honestly don't know about REDs plans for their mounts.

 

["jack willingham]

good questions aaron
in time some super knowledgeable peeps will answer for us laymans

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I am considering going with the Canon EF mount since I have some fast and expensive EF glass already. These should work on the 2/3 brain with some lens cropping (magnification) and closer to optimum coverage on the S35 Cinema and FF35. Correct?

This gets discussed to death around here. The lenses will work. However, lenses that are designed to cover 35mm imagers have longer focal lengths than those designed to cover a 2/3" sensor.

As Michael said, it's not the lenses that crop or magnify. Focal length is focal length. What happens is you are using a smaller sensor or imager in the 2/3" camera, so you will be getting a cropped field of view in relation to a 35mm camera. If you want to see how these lenses will work on a 2/3" Scarlet, put one on a Canon SLR and take a picture. Then bring that picture into your editing app of choice and crop it to the FOV you would get with that lens on a 2/3" sensor. This is where "crop factor" comes in, but you need a proper frame of reference.

Let's say you want to see what a 25mm lens would look like on a 2/3" Scarlet... This would be for any 25mm lens, doesn't matter if it's a lens designed to cover FF35 or 16mm or 2/3" Focal length is focal length. If you shoot your image with a 25mm lens on a Canon APS-C sized sensor (22.3 x 14.9 mm) and know what you get there, you could take that image and divide your horizontal dimension by 2.42 and your vertical dimension by 2.87.

On the Canon 7D, the APS-C sensor yields a 5184x3456 image. If you crop that image to 2/3" dimensions, you get a 2142x1204 image out of the middle. But that is the field of view that you will get on a 2/3" camera with that lens. Crop factors are a function of the sensor, not the lens. So it's the same crop coming from that APS-C sensor to the 2/3" sensor, regardless of whether the lens is a 15mm or a 150mm or anything in between.

All Professional 2/3" B4 ENG zoom lenses have built in back focus rings. Is there a back focus provided on the Canon EF or Nikon mounts made by Red, or is the mount set exactly to achieve accurate back focus?

Backfocus is set in the camera by adjusting the depth of the sensor block. This is how the Sony F35 and other newer cinema cameras are doing this. It also makes for cheaper construction of the lens mounts since many people will probably want multiple mounts for these cameras -- PL, Nikon, Canon, etc..

Does Red have lenses for anything other than the 2/3" at the moment or in the plans?

I'm not sure what you're asking here. RED currently makes the 18-85, 18-50 and 50-150 zooms in PL mount to cover Super-35 as well as the RED Pro Primes, also PL mount S35 / Mysterium-X 5K. They have announced a set of "mini-primes" that are optimized for the 2/3" sensor and have more appropriate focal lengths to match. RED has also announced upcoming "electronic" hybrid stills/cinema lenses designed to cover Full Frame 35mm.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

A couple people have asked me to clarify the crop...

This shows the difference between an APS-C sized sensor and a 2/3" 16:9 Mysterium-X sensor. The image used was taken with an 18mm lens. Or in actuality, a zoom with the focal length at 18mm.

On the Canon APS-C sensor, the AOV is 63.6° with an 18mm lens.

On the 2/3" sensor, the 18mm lens would give an AOV of 28.7° or a bit less than half. To achieve approximately the same AOV as using an 18mm on the APS-C (or RED One / S35), you would need a 7mm lens.

 

[Barry Fontaine]

They will definitely crop. But cropping is not the same as magnification (i.e. longer lens). Instead, your frame will simply be composed of the central portion of the projected image - you lose field of view.

Thank-you I understand what cropping does, however "magnification" or "multiplier" is an accurate description of what happens to the image. When using a telescope, microscope or magnifying glass you are looking at a smaller portion of the overall image, as in a smaller sensor. If the image from a 35mm and a 2/3 sensor using the same focal length lens were projected to the same screen size, the 2/3 produced image would appear magnified from that of the 35mm size sensor. Wikipedia uses the term "multiplier factor" when comparing different size sensors.
WIKIPEDIA:
A crop factor (sometimes referred to as a "focal length multiplier", even though the actual focal length is the same) can be used to calculate the 35 mm equivalent focal length from the actual focal length. The most common multiplier ratios (in order of announcements):
1.7× — Sigma SD14, Sigma SD10, Sigma SD9, Canon EOS DCS 3†
1.6× — Canon EOS 7D, 500D, 50D, 1000D, 40D, 400D, 30D, 450D, 20Da, 350D, 20D†, 300D†, 10D†, D60†, D30†
1.54× — Pentax K20D, Pentax K-7
1.53× — Pentax *istD†, Pentax *istDs†, Pentax *istDs2†, Pentax *istDL†, Pentax *istDL2†, Pentax K100D†, Pentax K100D Super†, Pentax K10D, Pentax K200D
1.5× — all Nikon DSLR cameras except the D3, D3s, D3x and D700; all Fuji, Sony (except for the α 850, α 900), and Konica Minolta DSLR cameras.
1.3ׇ — Canon EOS-1D Mark IV, 1D Mark III , 1D Mark II (and Mark II N), EOS-1D?, Kodak DCS 460†. Leica M8, M8.2


Jeff Kilkgroe's photo example helps to visualize the "multiplier factor". However his comparison to APS-C is not as important as a comparison to a 35mm "full-frame", as most Professional News and Sports still Photographers will be working with 35mm size sensors as what's in the full-frame Canon 5D or a slightly smaller sensor than 35mm 1.3x multiplier as in the 1D.
Jeff your answers to my other questions are very useful. Thank-you.

 

[David Rasberry]

Thank-you I understand what cropping does, however "magnification" or "multiplier" is an accurate description of what happens to the image. When using a telescope, microscope or magnifying glass you are looking at a smaller portion of the overall image, as in a smaller sensor. If the image from a 35mm and a 2/3 sensor using the same focal length lens were projected to the same screen size, the 2/3 produced image would appear magnified from that of the 35mm size sensor. Wikipedia uses the term "multiplier factor" when comparing different size sensors.
WIKIPEDIA:
A crop factor (sometimes referred to as a "focal length multiplier", even though the actual focal length is the same) can be used to calculate the 35 mm equivalent focal length from the actual focal length. The most common multiplier ratios (in order of announcements):
1.7× — Sigma SD14, Sigma SD10, Sigma SD9, Canon EOS DCS 3†
1.6× — Canon EOS 7D, 500D, 50D, 1000D, 40D, 400D, 30D, 450D, 20Da, 350D, 20D†, 300D†, 10D†, D60†, D30†
1.54× — Pentax K20D, Pentax K-7
1.53× — Pentax *istD†, Pentax *istDs†, Pentax *istDs2†, Pentax *istDL†, Pentax *istDL2†, Pentax K100D†, Pentax K100D Super†, Pentax K10D, Pentax K200D
1.5× — all Nikon DSLR cameras except the D3, D3s, D3x and D700; all Fuji, Sony (except for the α 850, α 900), and Konica Minolta DSLR cameras.
1.3ׇ — Canon EOS-1D Mark IV, 1D Mark III , 1D Mark II (and Mark II N), EOS-1D?, Kodak DCS 460†. Leica M8, M8.2


Jeff Kilkgroe's photo example helps to visualize the "multiplier factor". However his comparison to APS-C is not as important as a comparison to a 35mm "full-frame", as most Professional News and Sports still Photographers will be working with 35mm size sensors as what's in the full-frame Canon 5D or a slightly smaller sensor than 35mm 1.3x multiplier as in the 1D.
Jeff your answers to my other questions are very useful. Thank-you.

http://www.scarletuser.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=704&d=1260316542

Link to an excel spreadsheet that calculates horizontal AOV vs Focal length vs crop factors for some common formats.

 

[Doug Horton]

This has been incredibly helpful!!

Too bad my HVX setup is only worth roughly half of what the Scarlet setup would be.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Jeff Kilkgroe's photo example helps to visualize the "multiplier factor". However his comparison to APS-C is not as important as a comparison to a 35mm "full-frame", as most Professional News and Sports still Photographers will be working with 35mm size sensors as what's in the full-frame Canon 5D or a slightly smaller sensor than 35mm 1.3x multiplier as in the 1D.
Jeff your answers to my other questions are very useful. Thank-you.

I've been out of the loop for a bit here, but I can post a FF35 based example in the next day or so. I wouldn't bet on most sports or news photographers being that dependent on 35mm full frame. Most have gone digital long ago and with the exception of the Canon 5D and Nikon D3, full frame hasn't really been an option in the digital realm. But it's still a good comparison to post, because many still shoot film and many still relate their current digital systems, APS-C, APS-H, etc.. in terms of a "crop factor" relating to 35mm full frame.

APS-C is useful not only for the dominance of that size of sensor for digital SLRs, but it is also close in width to Super35, that many cinematographers, and of course RED One shooters, are accustomed to.

FF35 example coming soon...

 

[Ryan M.]

Hello, new here, as with most people visiting this thread. I've been filming and doing ENG work for like 8 years now. I do have a question though, or more or less looking for an opinion on this path of logic.

Ok, say I decided to buy a Scarlet 2/3 with the mindset that I will be upgrading to an FF35 in two years or so (or equiv or bigger brain at that time). Would it be more feasible to buy the 2/3 fixed kit for now, make some decent money off of the stuff I would do (mainly stock footage) and then when the time comes just get the bigger brain and use the accessories that I already have for the Fixed Kit and just buy new lenses ect...? -Or- Would it be better to just buy the 2/3 Cinema and separate lenses, even though I will be upgrading to the better sensor down the road?

The reason in not going directly to the S35 or FF35 for me is the initial investment involved (I'm paying off my college debt slowly, lol). My theory is that I use the cheaper kit to make money to buy more accessories and eventually the bigger brain and reuse the modules that I bought for the fixed unit.

Sorry if that sounded too wordy or stupid, I spent the day spinning though a Beta tape frame by frame to time code a script and now I'm mind numb. LOL

 

[Asta]

I see a lot of people worried about the 2/3 not giving them enough DOF, welp take a look at Izzy. http://redgrabs.com/izzy/

Casey

Don't forget that it was shot with 100mm focal length. On a S35 that would be like having a 250mm lens. And we use such a focal length not very often. Look at the normal prime-sets most lenses are between 14mm and 100mm for S35. Longer focal-lengthes are not very common in the daily use on a feature-film set.

DOF depends on two three things: Sensor-size, T-Stop (or F-Stop, doesn' matter) and focal length. so if your lens is long enough even a 1/3-camera
can get some DOF.

 

[Lancelot Jean Mallia]

The only controls on the brain itself are the power switch and the record start stop button. Either the Redmote, the side handle, or perhaps a link to an external computer are needed to access menus and do just about any kind of setup for the camera.

How hard is it to link it to an external computer? Total Noob, sorry any particular software needed?

 

[David Rasberry]

How hard is it to link it to an external computer? Total Noob, sorry any particular software needed?

The brain is ethernet/wi-fi equipped. Don't know how or if there will be a software interface or built in webserver to access menus and duplicate the Redmote controls yet though. This is still an unknown possibility.

 

[Nik Skjøth]

Focal lengths given in mm are always just that, the focal length of the optical path. It doesn't make any difference if they are designed for 2/3", Super35, FF35 or whatever. Different lens designs will provide coverage for different film or sensor sizes. But when referencing focal lengths, a 20mm is always a 20mm, a 50mm is always a 50mm. So if you take a 50mm lens designed to cover FF35 and put it onto a camera with a 2/3" sensor, you will get the exact same image and FOV as you would if you used a 50mm lens designed to only cover a 2/3" sensor.

So 50 mm is always 50 mm and it always gives the same focal lenght and field/angle of view. There is one problem though. A 1/3 image sensor camera would with its 5,5mm lens produce incredibly "tunnel view" type of images. Where the background always looks unnaturally far away.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Focal_length.jpg That is however not the case with my canon xl2.

Explain.

 

[David Swan]

A 50 mm lens is always 50 mm, but the angle of vision / perspective rendering depends on the size of the sensor.
5.5 mm on a 1/3" sensor is about the same angle of view / perspective as 50 mm on a 35 mm sensor / film.
David