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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RRENCODE vs. H.265 (HEVC)

Charles_Z said:
REDCODE is not a RAW format. It's a codec that takes RAW sensor data as input before quantization.
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Just to clarify being that we are in a Red Ray area.
1. Red cameras shoot in raw format but compressed at various levels ranging from visually lossless to fairly high compression that is not visually lossless. That doesn't mean that even the lowest compression rate is not technically lossless but you can't really see the difference visually.
2. .red is a highly compressed delivery codec which is proprietary to Red Ray players and Red laser projectors. You can't play this codec on a computer or any other piece of equipment unless Red develops or licenses it to others. This ensures that Red will sells a lot of players but also ensures security for the content on the system. A hardware based/reliant codec is much more difficult to pirate.
3. .red is not limited to encoding raw format from Red cameras. With the $20.00 software application you can encode any 4K content whether it's shot on a Red or Sony, or any other camera that can hold up to a 4K finish. That includes film scans.

Hope I've got this right and it helps clear up the confusion.

Larry
 
Larry Kelly said:
Just to clarify being that we are in a Red Ray area.
1. Red cameras shoot in raw format but compressed at various levels ranging from visually lossless to fairly high compression that is not visually lossless. That doesn't mean that even the lowest compression rate is not technically lossless but you can't really see the difference visually.
2. .red is a highly compressed delivery codec which is proprietary to Red Ray players and Red laser projectors. You can't play this codec on a computer or any other piece of equipment unless Red develops or licenses it to others. This ensures that Red will sells a lot of players but also ensures security for the content on the system. A hardware based/reliant codec is much more difficult to pirate.
3. .red is not limited to encoding raw format from Red cameras. With the $20.00 software application you can encode any 4K content whether it's shot on a Red or Sony, or any other camera that can hold up to a 4K finish. That includes film scans.

Hope I've got this right and it helps clear up the confusion.

Larry
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that sums it up pretty well.... :)

Atta boy!
 
I don‘t know why so many „professional“ CES-Observers complain about the 4K data rates for internet distribution, arguing even 20 Mbit/s (REDRAY) is too much.

I think it is a complete non-issue at least when 4K will hit the mainstream in 18-24 months.
People are watching YouTube Videos at about 10 Mbit/s today. Even if YouTube uses a part of H.265 compression advantage for cost savings and the rest for quality improvements YouTube/Netflix etc will stream HQ Videos at 20 Mbit/s+ from 2014/15.

And the monthly data bandwidth? That is a non-issue as well. People will not watch everything in 4K and with the upcoming much more cost-efficient LTE-Advanced Standard 300 GB+ monthly bandwidth will be pretty standard and affordable even for the masses.

Here in Germany I've to pay € 50/month for the first 30 GB and further € 15 for the next 30 GB and so on. All at 20-50 Mbit/s and that is today...
 
Roger Valdes said:
You're not being clear...

Redcode is a lossy format, not compressed raw.

Redcode's process throws away data. Therefor it's not raw. Period.
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Since the common definition of raw has included, even embraced, REDCode for several years now, can you name a type of file you consider raw? If you want to make up your own definition, then no one can argue with you based on that. REDCode is raw within the worlds I travel.
 
Patrick Tresch said:
I love your second post on this forum Charles_Z!

Have you worked with R3D? If so tell me what a true RAW file can do that R3D can't?


Thanks

Pat
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The .R3D file format is a RAW file. The wavelet codec itself, REDCODE, could be applied to debayered RGB data, which is the basis for the REDray player.

Don't confuse the codec (quantization/transformation) with actual data being manipulated.

Is CineForm a RAW file? (This is a rhetorical question.)
 
Roger Valdes said:
Redcode's process throws away data. Therefor it's not raw. Period.
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Before I showed it the pan, my steak tonight was raw. The rest of the cow wasn't required to be present.
 
Claus Mueller said:
After CES it is pretty obvious that 4K will become mainstream on TVs.....
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I wouldn't say that's obvious. I would say it's obvious that the consumer electronics manufacturers would very much like for that to be the case. To what degree the buying public goes along with that is very much an open question.
 
M Most said:
I wouldn't say that's obvious. I would say it's obvious that the consumer electronics manufacturers would very much like for that to be the case. To what degree the buying public goes along with that is very much an open question.
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Much of that public are still used to the idea that their television set should last 10yrs plus so replacing their four old five year old set is not something they are even thinking about. The durability of their new panel (or lack thereof) may suprise them, but that is a different issue.

John Marchant said:
Before I showed it the pan, my steak tonight was raw. The rest of the cow wasn't required to be present.
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Love that.
 
I'd be kinda surprised ifit was a variant of h.265...


Following Graeme for a little while, i would guess that having a shot at making a "new" codec (of course with all the legacy knowledge he has) and being able to steer and superwise a team of coders on souch a task, would be close to a dream come true for the last10 years. Codecs and the breaking down of them is and definitely was part of his analytical way into all this more than 10 years ago. Looking for the eternal answer to "why doesn't this shit just work, when it should and could"?

But this is just guessing!
 
Jon MIchael Puntervold said:
The topic of this thread and the codec for the .red container used by the upcoming Redray player...
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I figured as much, I know what .RED is but in my over tired state I was wondering if the Rrencode was something else again, but I guess it was just a repeated spelling error

But seriously, I trust that Graeme and crew have a kick ass codec, however a very flexible Red Ray player can only help further proliferate the system and be good for the new codec and us as as producers as well.
 
Difference between H.265 and REDcode is that H.265 has to go through a long time of testing before being ready for release as a major codec, REDcode is in-house and they don't have to follow anything. That's why Red overall release something earlier then anyone else, because they don't care to be "accepted" first, they want to change the industry and that's what it takes, something so good it's too good to not look away from and REDcode could be just that, a codec that kicks H.265's ass.

But H.265 will be the codec used both in broadcast, BluRay's web videos and so on. It would take a long time for a rogue codec like REDcode to be on the same level of industry standard. That demands that Red goes down the same path as H.265 before being ready.
 
Christoffer Glans said:
But H.265 will be the codec used both in broadcast, BluRay's
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I doubt we'll see it used on Blu-rays. That would mandate a new revision of the Blu-ray Disc specification and the design & manufacturing of new SoCs with all the abilities of current SoCs plus H.265. It would certainly be required for the "4K Blu-ray" but there's nothing happening on that front, according to Blu-ray Disc Association.
 
Petri Teittinen said:
I doubt we'll see it used on Blu-rays. That would mandate a new revision of the Blu-ray Disc specification and the design & manufacturing of new SoCs with all the abilities of current SoCs plus H.265. It would certainly be required for the "4K Blu-ray" but there's nothing happening on that front, according to Blu-ray Disc Association.
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With both the Playstation 4 and XBox 720 said to incorporate blu-ray drives, and being Sony a front runner of 4K, I can't see 4K blu-rays being too far behind. I think that a great move by Red would be to enter discussions with Sony,Microsoft and the Blu-ray Disc association to allow .red readability. Would this hinder Odemax? I don't think so, Odemax is a platform and the more platforms .red is readable the better for us content providers!
 
Larry Kelly said:
Ok, what's Rrencode?
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Just to clear up some stuff.

RREncode = The .RED Encoder Plugin that works within RedCine-X Pro. It will take a variety of image formats to encode a high quality deliverable .RED file.

The .RED Format = A delivery format with a data rate around 2.5MB/s. Which means a full 2 hour feature would be around 18GB worth of data. RREncode is used to create the .RED file. REDRAY and the upcoming REDRAY and CRIMSON Projectors all can playback .RED files.

The .R3D Format = The raw format Red cameras capture which can be used in RedCine-X Pro and many popular non-linear editing packages.


It is likely that .RED files will also be able to be encoded through 3rd party applications as well. More details are coming soon on that front.
 
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