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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

A Response To Jim Jannard and 1080P

I can only imagine that if Jim is ready to speak this loudly on the subject, then a RED RAY release must be getting closer...and a string of distribution partnerships.

The DETAILS of what the future of imaging looks like may have changed at RED, considerably at times, but the VISION itself -- better imaging systems for as many people as possible, at the best possible price points -- has been unwavering and consistent. Delivery is the next frontier and has been for awhile, let's see what happens.

We have already had a string of 1080 delivery failures - HD DVD is one, I would say Blu-Ray has been another - Sony had a decent technology, but they failed to deliver a standard with ubiquitous appeal and a reasonable price point.

I still know only a small handful of people who are not content producers or Playstation owners who bothered to invest in it. It wasn't "more better" and Sony kept trying relentlessly to hawk its boxes and its portable media and its licensing structure at inflated price points, keeping it out of the hands of most consumers and many smaller content providers. Massive fail.

This is the first year that box prices have truly come in, on Blu-Ray players, and it is too little, too late. Sony missed an entire generation of consumer dollars.

In my opinion, there is a large consumer base ripe for the picking. They didn't buy crummy Apple TV (which is getting a lot better and cheaper and starting to offer real content - I think Apple has some plans, at last, but it took them long enough...) and they didn't buy Blu-Ray except by its default inclusion in PS boxes (at which point, Sony stupidly declared a victory over HD DVD, winning a Pyrrhic battle but losing the war).

And much of the populace is still watching SD on HD TV sets.

I don't think this is a function of "good enough" - it is quite the opposite. The vast majority of high-def delivery has been "NOT good enough" - too little has been offered at exploitative pricing. It's been a rip-off, and no one wants to pay for a rip-off.

If Jim can turn the perception of the high-def rip-off around, and make 4K "more better" and get it into a lot of hands, we will finally get some traction on a satisfying high-definition delivery.

RED has established a nice track record of inexpensive quantum leaps. So whatever ace Jim has up his sleeve, I'm excited to see it. It's one thing to say that it's the future, another one to bring the future to us and drop it on the doorstep. Back up the truck and unload my RED RAY. I've been waiting a long time for this!
 
In the future actresses are gonna have to take really good care of their skin, make up will be an even higher art form and extreme close ups will be done away with, unless they are a perfect CGI subject.
 
In the future actresses are gonna have to take really good care of their skin, make up will be an even higher art form and extreme close ups will be done away with, unless they are a perfect CGI subject.

In the future? 8X10 was (still is) used for portraiture and glamour/fashion. Close ups and all ( not to mention today's medium format pixel counts). If it was ugly on 8X10 film, 35mm didn't help. The post technology is there to help special needs cases: high pixel count dumbed down is far superior to low ones tarted up. We can have it both ways, I like that.



Jim is pushing the beast along, if he has to occasionally crack the whip (or the lip) to keep the S.O.B moving, it's OK with me.
 
And did I mention that REDray is 5 times the resolution of 1080P and half the bandwidth?

Jim, you know I'm on your side in most of this, but in the interest of accuracy, if you're comparing RedRay to "1080p" you're not making a meaningful comparison because you're comparing a delivery codec to a picture format. If you want to say that 4K using RedRay is half the bandwidth of 1080p on BluRay, that makes sense. But "1080p" is delivered using many different codecs, some far more compressed than any of the three codecs used for BluRay (AVC, VC1, and MPEG2), especially on the Internet pipes you're talking about. The better comparison if you're not talking about packaged media is, say, RedRay at 10-15Mb (don't know exactly where that stands these days...) vs. 1080p at about 3-4Mb as currently delivered by services such as Hulu Plus, Netflix, and Apple.

In the interest of accuracy, of course...
:emote_hippie:
 
I just don't get the use of the term "mistake". It is just senstationlistic.

SD, 720p, 1080p, 3D, 4K. All stepping stones to whatever comes next. Jim, do you really think the industry will just say "that's it then, perfect" at 4K?

Think about it. 4K is the theoretical upper limit of 100 years worth of filmed movies and TV shows. 100 years of entertainment, can, in theory, be scanned to 4K and released for 4K display -- 4K LCDs at home, 4K projection, etc. Once you go to 6K, for example, you lose 100 years worth of filmed entertainment at the display's native resolution. All that filmed material now has to be 'up-rezd" for the 6K screens. Of course, in practical terms, plenty of the filmed entertainment from the last 100 years will not really hold up at 4K, due to negatives in poor condition, etc, but in theory, it can.

4K fits very nicely as the new "gold standard" for display, and will remain the gold standard for quite a while. As Jim has said, 1080p is an intermediate, stop-gap resolution. It's not even enough resolution for movie theaters right now. 1080p pixelates badly near the front seats of a multiplex theater.

Again, just to re-emphasize, once you move to 8K, for example, you lose 100 years worth of entertainment at the "native" resolution of the display screen.

It's difficult to understand why people cannot see 4K coming. It's crystal clear to many of us. In fact, of all types of technology forecasting, this move to 4K is among the easiest to see coming, in my mind.

Now where's my 4K LCD? :cheers2:
 
In the near future... the same companies that told you 1080P "was good enough" will release 4K cameras and tell you a new story. Mark my words.

Jim

Yeah, I can see it now: "Sony introduces the future of digital cinema cameras - 4K! Take the leap into crystal-clear, future-proof imaging...."

But of course this "amazing advancement" will probably be 4K Bayer. :rolleyes5:
 
In the near future... the same companies that told you 1080P "was good enough" will release 4K cameras and tell you a new story. Mark my words.

Jim

It's scary to imagine where we'd still be had RED not come along. Thanks for forcing the issue, Jim.
 
I know we've gotten close to the point where everything in this discussion has already been said, but as one who editorialized back in 1992 for the standards committee to get a move on (and accept 16X9 rather than 2X1), I think it would be useful for the 4Kers to review the technological context on the ATSC decision:

http://web.mit.edu/6.933/www/HDTV.pdf

CRT was the monitor technology of the day and was for years after. The adoption of anything more than 1080p would have brought with it higher costs that would have set back market penetration 3 to 6 years. That sounds like an acceptable delay in hind-sight, but it wasn't back then.
 
Jim,

I would guess that RED has plans on making 4K projectors! RED created the ability to capture 4k and beyond. They have been working on and have had working models of a media player that could distribute the the media their products create. It makes logical sense to me that after REDRay, there will be REDVision(lack of a better title), a RED designed theater projector system for the masses?
 
In the near future... the same companies that told you 1080P "was good enough" will release 4K cameras and tell you a new story. Mark my words.

Jim

I think we'll se 4k cams from Sony and Arri within a year.

The "affordable 1080 10-bit s-log 444" camera doesn't make much sense if not seen in such a context...

Penelope is already 4k
 
I think we'll se 4k cams from Sony and Arri within a year.

The "affordable 1080 10-bit s-log 444" camera doesn't make much sense if not seen in such a context...

Penelope is already 4k

Gunleik,

I'm not so sure even nobody have seen yet Penelope 4K 16 bit uncompressed footage with the same based CCD sensor that Dalsa already crashed years ago...

and we haven't seen that even as a single 16 bit TIFF file yet...

Also Arri is almost a half dead if we talk about 4K acquisition, don't know what is going on with Panavision and Sony, also Canon 4K is a big joke...

I should repeat all the time that the ticket for 4K+ is a codec...

Keep in mind about those facts...
 
The better comparison if you're not talking about packaged media is, say, RedRay at 10-15Mb (don't know exactly where that stands these days...) vs. 1080p at about 3-4Mb as currently delivered by services such as Hulu Plus, Netflix, and Apple.

In the interest of accuracy, of course...
:emote_hippie:

Well ... I'd say the better comparison is actually 2K DCP at 250Mb vs. 4K at 15Mb.
 
RedRay at 10-15Mb (don't know exactly where that stands these days...) vs. 1080p at about 3-4Mb as currently delivered by services such as Hulu Plus, Netflix, and Apple.

In the interest of accuracy, of course...
:emote_hippie:

Apple doesnt deliver 1080p as far as I know. Netflix streaming quality pretty much sucks. Never used Hulu plus yet... how is the quality?

The above delivery services are nothing any decent person ever would even contemplate projecting on a 40 foot screen and charging people for... i have a really hard time watching them even on a 80" display at home.
 
I think that youtube article makes a good point about distributing films on youtube so that people who never would have seen them otherwise will get a chance. There are tons of movies I "took a chance" on watching that were on Netflix instant watch that I never would have seen otherwise. (for example check out king of kong on netflix instant watch...great little documentary for what it is, I was very entertained. I doubt I would have ever seen that had it not been for netflix though)

4k is indeed the future of motion picture resolution, but streaming sites such as hulu, iTunes, and netflix are the future of distribution. Watching HD content through my xbox using netflix I get super clean images just using my wireless internet. The images I get watching HDTV or an HD movie on demand look like crap by comparison (washington dc area comcast cable).

I do think youtube will have a problem with the size of 4k files and the time it will take to load them....maybe someone with their own camera company will create a brand new distribution codec that will change all that.......

My one problem with that article is saying IMAX is 2 x 2k projectors and that the redone is higher resolution. They should clarify and say that red is 4k which is better than the crappy multiplex version of IMAX that people are trying to pass off as IMAX these days.

RED one beats multiplex IMAX.

15 perf 70mm film IMAX that I saw at places like the Maryland Science center beats the RED One but is a super pain in the ass to shoot with and use

I fully expect the RED Monstro Sensor (if not the Epic s35) to not only meet and possibly surpass the quality of 15 perf 70mm IMAX film, but to do it with a useable camera system that fits in a backpack. Maybe the Epic s35 is good enough that it could stand in the place of 15perf 70mm film...I hope it is...but either way the fact is RED is creating technology that is going to revolutionize the types of films, and more specifically the kinds of shots you will be able to get at those resolutions.

edit:
@Jarred

I was typing my post when you made your comment about netflix streaming resolution. I cannot speak for other "netflix ready devices" and I know streaming over the netflix website doesn't give you the cleanest images but have you ever seen HD content through xbox? I know its not theatre quality images but come on, it's the best of a bad situation at least. Like I said in my post, I prefer it because its streaming. That means I dont need a blu ray player, and I don't need to have a hard copy of the movie file such as a blu ray disc. I also mention that for me it is substantially better than cable broadcast HD content which is the only other option really. I'm not saying its good enough for my local theatre but I think that what they have going on is something that is a step in the right direction for the 4k future everyone is talking about. I would think all they would need to distribute in 4K would be for studios to start giving them 4k copies of movies to stream, and for their customers to get 4k displays...unless I am missing something?
 
is it implied that the people starting out who can only afford 1080p cameras should not bother then?
 
great post, Tom. I think one of the things that doesn't get filtered much through the reduser noise is that Jim hasn't ever characterized his project as a "film killer" - just a film replacement which honors the original medium...something 1080 could never be or do, not really.

to be able to see all imaging systems live up to the standard of film and 4K., across all pipelines...is definitely a dream worth sticking around for....

in my earlier life, as a film historian and academic, I studied the period of film production between 1894-1908 pretty hard, wrote papers, a dissertation which helped me land a trifecta of fellowships - had a book contract with Johns Hopkins University Press which I never fulfilled because I decided I wanted to work in production more than I wanted tenure and left an entire career behind...

to live in this revolution. to be one step away from some of the great imaging inventors of our time...

why read about or teach history when you can, in a small way, participate in it?
 
is it implied that the people starting out who can only afford 1080p cameras should not bother then?

Right now I do have GH2 the smallest "good enough" 1080p camera at the moment and it is much better than Alexa.

About the price and ergonomics we do not have to argue and discuss at all.

Also very soon I'll show you a random quick and dirty test footage with GH2 in Vienna on Vimeo.

GH2_01.jpg

GH2 the smallest 1080p "good enough" digital cine camera, a black bar chair by Konstantin Grcic.

GH2_02.jpg

GH2 the smallest 1080p "good enough" digital cine camera, a black bar chair by Konstantin Grcic.

j-strauss-01.jpg

Shot today at Christmas 24, Dec 2010 with the kit lens Lumix G Vario HD 14-140mm on GH2, also it's not a still photo thing, it's taken as a snapshot from the original video footage...FCP pipeline out to tiff/jpg thing out...

Stay tuned.
 
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