A Response To Jim Jannard and 1080P

[Peter Osinski]

is it implied that the people starting out who can only afford 1080p cameras should not bother then?

I don't think anyone is saying that, but I understand why this point keeps getting brought up.

I think they are saying that the future is 4k, and if you have the means to shoot with it then you would be foolish to choose 2k or 1080p. For example George Lucas shot most if not all of the Episode I-III films in 1080p. He's not exactly strapped for cash and he still chose to go in a direction that locks him into that resolution forever. He could have shot on film and had the option of 2k now 4k later.

The scarlet 3k is being released because a lot of people and productions don't have the budget to shoot "for the future" in the present. It's just a matter of cost.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

is it implied that the people starting out who can only afford 1080p cameras should not bother then?

It is implied that you should start with the best camera that you can afford and work your way up to a better camera than you can afford.

That is what hundreds, maybe even thousands, of early adopters did.

I still shoot 1080 footage because people still pay me to shoot 1080 footage.

I am much happier when they pay me to shoot 4K footage, however.

 

[Jannard]

You should shoot whatever you can afford to shoot. The problem I have is the conscious decision to shoot 1080P when budget is not an issue...

The message is out there that "1080P is good enough". I'm just trying to make sure that everyone knows that concept is not accurate.

Jim

 

[paulherrin]

jim, you are the man. merry christmas!

 

[Tico Llaurador]

I've decided. I need to talk louder...

Jim

No, Jim. You need to start a blog. Post your thoughts. Ideas. Opinions. Tests. Anything and everything about imaging that compells you to share with others, so we can share the knowledge and "get it". IMHO, REDuser (including Recon) has way too much chatter, way too many rabbit holes to get lost in. Just sayin'...

 

[paulherrin]

Apple doesnt deliver 1080p as far as I know. Netflix streaming quality pretty much sucks. Never used Hulu plus yet... how is the quality?

The above delivery services are nothing any decent person ever would even contemplate projecting on a 40 foot screen and charging people for... i have a really hard time watching them even on a 80" display at home.

really? i have a hard time on a 19" inch display... :/

oh, and tico... seconded

 

[Imran Farouk]

On all accounts, 4K and above is much better then a 1080p camera, no questions about that

As a delivery format? It's great, I'd love it but until they start producing 4K screens, marketing them etc. on a consumer level 1080p is still the best option FOR DELIVERY.

Shooting in 1080p like many above have stated, is pointless when budget isn't an issue. When budget is an issue, sure ok why not but there will be a time when budget can accommodate 4K+ because it will get cheaper. I'm sure thats a future Jim's looking for is when 4K isn't an issue, budget or no budget as are many others. I'd be awesome if everyone could shoot either film or the digital equivalent, which right now is RED.

As far as it matters, 1080p cameras are nothing close to the future cameras of EPIC and Scarlet. I'd love for content to be made of those cameras or other 4K cameras and to be published in 1080p. It will definitely look better and at the same time at least the consumers that have gone and bought 720-1080p screens to replace their old ones won't feel like their purchase was pre-mature.

Given, I don't have an issue watching 1080p/720p but when I look at a 4K raw or even a 4K compressed, 1080p/720p just isn't cutting it and when you consider the cost of just going that little extra bit, it's well worth it. Given I don't have a non issue on anything less then a 32" when I go higher, I start to feel like I'm watching a DVD instead of a Hi-Def "Blu-Ray" movie...the quality difference is a lot clearer between 4K and 1080p as you go higher up (stating the obvious here no doubt).
Really the 4K print is what should be on a Blu-Ray disk and not the 1080P one or just rebrand them and be done with DVDs. 1080p takes the spot of DVDs and 4K takes the spot of what is now "Hi-Def 1080p Blu-Ray".
Guess that's where Red-Ray comes in...

side note:
Merry Christmas to all

EDIT:
Agreed that Jim, you need a blog...I can only imagine the hits it'd get haha

 

[shashbugu]

Recording to 1080P ProRes is coming... but what happens when TV goes to 4K? We'll give you what you ask for... but need to tell you that 1080P's days are numbered.

BTW... you can also record 720P and transcode to SD. Every option is available. Ever wonder why YouTube has a 4K option?

Jim

Oh no! no no no, I think we should just stick to getting rid of the Proxies that are created alongside R3D's and just record 4k or 2k Prores 4444 alongside 5K R3D's. That will surely shut up the bloody ENG guys. Transcode for feature films straight to edit for TV. 1080P HD, will not be spoken here on Reduser.net.

 

[Peter Osinski]

Oh no! no no no, I think we should just stick to getting rid of the Proxies that are created alongside R3D's and just record 4k or 2k Prores 4444 alongside 5K R3D's. That will surely shut up the bloody ENG guys. Transcode for feature films straight to edit for TV. 1080P HD, will not be spoken here on Reduser.net.

Correct me if im wrong but aren't the proxies just files that reference the r3d file and being reference files they take up next to no space on your recording media?

If you started recording prores to your media alongside r3d you would be filling up hard drives like crazy.

 

[M Most]

Apple doesnt deliver 1080p as far as I know. Netflix streaming quality pretty much sucks. Never used Hulu plus yet... how is the quality?

You are correct that Apple does not deliver 1080, but I was using it more as an example of streaming codec rates for HD formats than for 1080p specifically. You may think Netflix quality "sucks," but it's very, very successful, and personally, it really doesn't bother me when I can see just about anything I want to whenever I want to. Hulu is quite good provided you have a good, reliable high speed connection and are watching through a good host (I use a PS3).

The above delivery services are nothing any decent person ever would even contemplate projecting on a 40 foot screen and charging people for... i have a really hard time watching them even on a 80" display at home.

Sounds to me like we're changing the conversation now. I was under the impression we were talking about streaming to the home and home displays. You're now talking about theatrical exhibition, and I don't think any reasonable theater owner would attempt to screen Hulu Plus or Netflix for a paying audience, especially when it would be illegal. But while you know I understand and advocate the use of higher resolution formats like 4K and 5K for origination, I really don't see it as a viable delivery format for homes any time in the near future, especially not in a time when most people I know are far more concerned with having a job and putting food on their table than they are with home theaters and 4K displays. And also not when I think they probably find 3D more compelling and interesting than higher resolutions. But that's just me, and these are all just personal opinions.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Sounds to me like we're changing the conversation now. I was under the impression we were talking about streaming to the home and home displays. You're now talking about theatrical exhibition, and I don't think any reasonable theater owner would attempt to screen Hulu Plus or Netflix for a paying audience, especially when it would be illegal. But while you know I understand and advocate the use of higher resolution formats like 4K and 5K for origination, I really don't see it as a viable delivery format for homes any time in the near future, especially not in a time when most people I know are far more concerned with having a job and putting food on their table than they are with home theaters and 4K displays. And also not when I think they probably find 3D more compelling and interesting than higher resolutions. But that's just me, and these are all just personal opinions.

4K display for home will most likely begin in the form of downloads. Optical discs seem to be going away as a format, with Bluray possibly being the last. From here on out some type of more direct download or file distribution or buffered "streaming" will likely take over. Once a couple "Planet Earth" style programs and films come out at 4K, the ball will begin rolling. It may take quite a while for cable TV to catch up, but cable TV is becoming an outdated concept itself.

You say most people are too broke for 4K, but trust me, there are plenty of rich people left, and they love to spend money on the latest home theater tech. Somehow, college kids manage to afford $6,000 gaming PCs. There is money out there.

BTW, right now I am playing the new Star Wars Force Unleashed II game on my PC, at 2560 x 1600. It looks beautiful! How long before the first video games start offering 4K resolution? All we are waiting on now are the monitors, which I have to suspect are already in the works.

 

[Joel Kaye]

4K display for home will most likely begin the form of downloads.

I'm with Tom here. It has to happen via the Internet. Indie filmmakers offering their movie streaming in 4K directly to the final user. Will it work? Eventually I sure hope it does. Right now I don't how an indie makes money on Netflix.

Does anyone have a clue how Netflix pays for videos it streams and if money makes it back to the filmmaker?

 

[Ivan Kovax]

Think about it. 4K is the theoretical upper limit of 100 years worth of filmed movies and TV shows. 100 years of entertainment, can, in theory, be scanned to 4K and released for 4K display -- 4K LCDs at home, 4K projection, etc. Once you go to 6K, for example, you lose 100 years worth of filmed entertainment at the display's native resolution. All that filmed material now has to be 'up-rezd" for the 6K screens. Of course, in practical terms, plenty of the filmed entertainment from the last 100 years will not really hold up at 4K, due to negatives in poor condition, etc, but in theory, it can.

4K fits very nicely as the new "gold standard" for display, and will remain the gold standard for quite a while.
:cheers2:

Great point Tom!

 

[Peter Chang]

You say most people are too broke for 4K, but trust me, there are plenty of rich people left, and they love to spend money on the latest home theater tech. Somehow, college kids manage to afford $6,000 gaming PCs. There is money out there.

Exactly. I know two people with 4K projectors in their home. CES 2011 is only two weeks away...

BTW, right now I am playing the new Star Wars Force Unleashed II game on my PC, at 2560 x 1600. It looks beautiful!

Gotta love the 30" monitor for PC gaming! :thumbup: Note that 2560x1600 is double the pixels of 1920x1080. 4096x2160 is 8x.

How long before the first video games start offering 4K resolution?

Crysis 2 will support it!

 

[Joe Walker]

Sounds like we're going to need some 5k cameras pretty soon.....gee, I wonder where we're going to get those? I sure wish I could purchase an Epic Light before April. Sigh.................

 

[Ryan Farnes]

No, Jim. You need to start a blog. Post your thoughts. Ideas. Opinions. Tests. Anything and everything about imaging that compells you to share with others, so we can share the knowledge and "get it". IMHO, REDuser (including Recon) has way too much chatter, way too many rabbit holes to get lost in. Just sayin'...

Video podcast.

 

[Anthony Rinaldi]

The is somewhat of the "Need A to make B worth developing, but A doesn't make much sense till B is already around." A is the 4K delivery medium, and B is the 4K viewing devices.

All RED has to do is make REDRay a consumer 4K streaming delivery standard, which is entirely possible at 10-15Mbps and start delivering content to consumers with a consumer REDRay set-top box, even if 99.9% of anyone who will watch it in the very near future is going to only see it in 1080p. Even sell 4K REDRay content for playback in their REDRay-enabled TV or set-top box or computer. Maybe even partner up with Netflix or REDBox...

Just think back a few years to 3D. Not too long ago, it was relegated to only very high-end theaters and/or limited to gimmicky flicks, and now a 3D home TV is nearly the same cost as a regular television, with more new content every week!

Make 4K content accessible to users, and they will be the ones demanding 4K TV's and projectors at consumer prices, not to mention they'd be the ones demanding they buy their movies in 4K, thereby making 4K+ acquisition all the more appealing to the content creators. RED jump over the competition in the stagnant digital cinema camera market just 3 years ago. They can do the same for consumer content delivery in 2011 if they really want to!

 

[Joseph Hutson]

No, Jim. You need to start a blog. Post your thoughts. Ideas. Opinions. Tests. Anything and everything about imaging that compells you to share with others, so we can share the knowledge and "get it". IMHO, REDuser (including Recon) has way too much chatter, way too many rabbit holes to get lost in. Just sayin'...

I agree. Start the blog for people to be able to follow. Then, supply a link to REDuser for more discussion.

Many many people would be following. It'd be interesting to see the traffic analytics on that one...

 

[Tom Lowe]

Crysis 2 will support it!

There you go! Could this be the first game to drive 4K displays for gamers at home? There must be a few 4K LCDs in the works, or Jim would probably start building one himself. One way or another, they are coming soon, I think.

 

[George Tsai]

Gotta love the 30" monitor for PC gaming! :thumbup: Note that 2560x1600 is double the pixels of 1920x1080. 4096x2160 is 8x.



Crysis 2 will support it!

Bad Company 2, Dirt 2.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsrQF81nA6c
essentially 6k resolution with bevel correction, without it's just under 6k resolution. All off one video card
here's video with virtical screen setup, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNkDX2pcg0U&feature=fvw

and when you put 4 of them together..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6Vf8R_gOec&feature=related