REDRAY NOW SHIPPING...

[Phil Holland]

How long did it take your system to encode? Does the encoding process scale with more cores?

I recently ripped apart my true color and edit suite as I'm building a new one next month, but on this 4 core 950 3.07GHz I'm getting somewhere between 10-14 minutes per minute of 4K DPX encoded depending on system load.

Haven't tested it out on my laptop yet, but I am going to do some experiments with frames over different connections to see if the read time comes into play on faster connections. I suspect on anything USB 3.0-ish and faster it shouldn't hurt your encoding time much.

I know for a fact I'll be able to get that time down with the new system though and that's what I'll be more interested in personally.

 

[Les Hillis]

Just ran some quick analysis on my last .RED encode.

Started off with: 7729 16bit DPX 4K UHD frames frames (00:05:20 runtime)
Which comes out to: 238GB of disk space
Encoded to .RED Cinema 36: 1.33GB (with stereo audio track)

Thanks for the numbers Phil. Looks like an amazing amount of compression. Better than what I've seen with some AVI to .x264 transcodes, and no doubt resulting in a much better looking output.

Am wondering if anyone's used the lowest Standard (9Mbps) .RED setting with some codec-challenging content to see what the lowest possible quality is that you can get with this. One of the attractions for me with the REDRAY player and .RED finalization of content (even for lower than 4K viewing) is the idea that I can just sort of set it and forget it and trust that it will give the best result possible. At the moment, without the REDRAY player and .RED codec, trying to get a final output file smaller than a few hundred GB requires using 'secret' techniques and processes that are beyond me, or accepting a reduction in image quality. For personal use or limited display purposes, having the output limited to dependence on the player itself isn't a problem, and makes getting a REDRAY player tempting even for 2k viewing.

 

[John Marchant]

Redray makes sense even at HD. Its the best quality compressed playback solution I've seen at any resolution. 4K is a very thick delicious layer of icing on top.

 

[Charles_Z]

I recently ripped apart my true color and edit suite as I'm building a new one next month, but on this 4 core 950 3.07GHz I'm getting somewhere between 10-14 minutes per minute of 4K DPX encoded depending on system load.

Haven't tested it out on my laptop yet, but I am going to do some experiments with frames over different connections to see if the read time comes into play on faster connections. I suspect on anything USB 3.0-ish and faster it shouldn't hurt your encoding time much.

I know for a fact I'll be able to get that time down with the new system though and that's what I'll be more interested in personally.

Another thing, if you don't mind: what are your resolution options for encoding? Does everything have to be 4K? Can do you 2K, 1080p, or anything modulus 2?

 

[Clark Dunbar]

At This time: (RRencoder 1.0's initial released version) for .RED encode - the codec's current resolution is 4096x2160 - so if you start with a smaller resolution the file it is 'up-scaled' for output. There are options for the aspect ratio - to fit the 4096x2160 space - (ie fit height or fit width) There are 3 - compression settings (9Mbps, 18 Mbps, and 36Mbps) you have the option for 23.98 or 24 fps and the audio options are Stereo, 5:1 and 7:1. Again is is the 1st release of the encoder - so more options should become available as 'RRencoder" is refined and improved. Input into the REDCine-X B19 with RRencoder plugin installed are: R3D or Tif/DPA sequences along with your Audio file. Expect changes and improvements along with additional options as the plugin is worked on by the REDray/RRencoder software team. So far it's be rock solid in it's current capabilities.

 

[Sergio Perez]

At This time: (RRencoder 1.0's initial released version) for .RED encode - the codec's current resolution is 4096x2160 - so if you start with a smaller resolution the file it is 'up-scaled' for output. There are options for the aspect ratio - to fit the 4096x2160 space - (ie fit height or fit width) There are 3 - compression settings (9Mbps, 18 Mbps, and 36Mbps) you have the option for 23.98 or 24 fps and the audio options are Stereo, 5:1 and 7:1. Again is is the 1st release of the encoder - so more options should become available as 'RRencoder" is refined and improved. Input into the REDCine-X B19 with RRencoder plugin installed are: R3D or Tif/DPA sequences along with your Audio file. Expect changes and improvements along with additional options as the plugin is worked on by the REDray/RRencoder software team. So far it's be rock solid in it's current capabilities.

No 25p?

 

[Clark Dunbar]

25p - Not with this initial release.

 

[Mark Andersen]

I'm surprised there isn't yet a 3840 UHD option.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I'm surprised there isn't yet a 3840 UHD option.

So far, RED has only mentioned a container size of 4096 pixels wide. I think they also did add 2K to the spec, but not implemented? 3840 UHD would be a welcome addition, a great many new displays and projectors are targeting that resolution. However, all current "4K" projectors I'm aware of are 4096x2160. Well, except for that "wobulated" Epson prototype bastard-child hybrid of a projector and a bad idea.

 

[mark haflich]

I am really glad this product seems to help all you guys in the film business so much. I'd be interested on how the maximum encoded rate looks on a large screen through a 4K projector.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Shine that RedRay

Shine that RedRay

Considering the number of shipping panels that are natively 3840x2160 I sure hope that 4096 wide container offers a "flag" that center crops on output - even if it means you have to pad the sides with black pixels when authoring. If the internal electronics in the panels are relied on to scale the images on the fly I would expect some truly horrendous geometric distortion and scaling artifacts.

BTW, if Apple does come to market with a UHD or greater resolution panel with TB2 as the input tap - anyone care to guess how we will be able to connect a RedRay player to it? If Apple includes a HDMI 1.4a port on such a display that would cap refresh rates to 30fps at 3840x2160 and 24fps at 4096x2160. I can live with that in these early days as long as the panel itself can mimic the double and triple "flash" technique used in film projection. I don't know if you've ever watched native 24fps material but it looks "choppy".

The market for UHD/4K is so nascent that predictions are highly speculative to say the least. That said, I see RED targeting a solution (RedRay) that offers both high quality and a low enough transportable bit rate to make IP distribution possible. Its a neat trick, with the cost of the HW the big handicap for market penetration. HEVC/H.265 OTOH, seems all about making UHD a more realistic near term business proposition by, among other things, postulating that lower IQ vs the .RED topology will be scarcely noticed by 95% of the market.

There are two obvious paths - .RED will manifest in the "pro" market as an alternative to DCP and/or there will be a second generation RedRay player that sells for under $500. Pure speculation for sure, but is there anyone who cares to argue that a $1,500+ "player", no matter how awesome, will sell millions of units?

Don't get me wrong, I am thrilled that RED has brought the RedRay to market and rejoice in the opportunity it offers to really show off UHD/4K material. Nothing would make a 4K wonk like me happier than to see RedRays everywhere.

Cheers - #19

 

[Phil Holland]

REDRAY aside, from the ins and outs of meetings I've had now for two years what I can discern from where everybody is going with 4K and 4K UHD is:

- 24-60fps playback.

Once the 4K explosion settles we'll be seeing likely sports and certain HFR productions in that 48-60fps timebase. Right now this is the real puzzler for folks as it's a bit of uncharted territory and they are already trying to figure out how to integrate 4K into their programming, delivery, pipelines, and encoding options.

4K right now is the Wild West and HDMI 2.0, H.265, and .RED all just happened. Also, there's stuff still in development on all of those fronts. And that's not to mention digital delivery being something "in the works" by some of the big hitters out there. This has greatly effected people who manufacture displays as they don't know exactly what to do or really what to offer in terms of connection options.

In terms of it's market penetration, it's sort of obvious now that everybody wants or is working on a 4K solution. The big question for everybody (Microsoft, Sony, Apple, Google, Time Warner, DirectTV, etc) is more or less how.

Red themselves really needs to be applauded providing something this high quality to the market in terms of a player and codec (and eventually projectors). It's been mentioned in this thread, but even at 1080p, this is likely the best looking 1080p material you have seen on a consumer monitors. That said, encoding is always an art form, and I'm doing my best to break .RED so I can see where people may have troubles. So far though I'm alarmingly impressed.

REDRAY at the moment supports 24fps, but is spec'd to do up to 60fps via the use of 4X HDMI 1.4 cables. That's today and tomorrow anything can happen.

I've encoded 4K and 4K UHD and don't know exactly what happens to the .RED encoding, but it plays back correctly. Nothing is squeezed. I did just encoded a 4K (4096x2160) scene into a 4K UHD (3840x2160) container though and that's of course fine for 16x9 displays.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Thanks for all the reports Phil. If you have the time and inclination would be interested in knowing what would happen if you created some test images with framing guides at various aspect ratios and ran them through the RRencoder. 1:1.89 to 1:1.78 (16x9) in particular.

I am cautiously optimistic that Apple will put a HDMI 2.0 port on their new display. If so, perhaps AJA or BM will market a cross converter that would take 4x HDMI 1.4a in and feed 1x HDMI 2.0 out. Of course if a new Apple display is the target device, perhaps a 4x HDMI 1.4a to TB2 converter would make more sense - RED, AJA, BM and Matrox are all potential vendors. What about HDMI 2.0 to TB2 bi-directional?

Once HDMI 2.0 chips are in the wild what would be required to retrofit RedRay players? Is that even feasible? Could RED potentially make an external adapter that used the 4 HDMI 1.4a ports to feed a HDMI 2.0 port? Would an upgrade to HDMI 2.0 require sending RedRay players in for a board swap that enabled the existing physical port(s) to support HDMI 2.0? Would that be cost effective?

If I had to place a bet, I'd wager that Red will come to market with RedRayX by NAB 2014 (possibly even protos at CES 2014) with full support for HDMI 2.0 and TB2. I'd even expect them to offer a special discount to buyers of the first gen RedRay players to honor their Obsolescence Obsolete mantra. Carnac out.

Cheers - #19

 

[M Most]

There are two obvious paths - .RED will manifest in the "pro" market as an alternative to DCP and/or there will be a second generation RedRay player that sells for under $500. Pure speculation for sure, but is there anyone who cares to argue that a $1,500+ "player", no matter how awesome, will sell millions of units?

If recent trends and recent history are any indicator, the only type of player device that will sell to the mass market is one that streams content from multiple providers, supports any codec those providers care to use, and costs under $100.

And it will be an easier sell if it also plays games.

 

[Sergio Perez]

Jarred and Red Team, how about a REDRAY video tutorial like the previous excellent ones? Also what's the recommended workflow for 25p material to be showcased on Redray right now? Is the Seiki working good for you?

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

If recent trends and recent history are any indicator, the only type of player device that will sell to the mass market is one that streams content from multiple providers, supports any codec those providers care to use, and costs under $100.
And it will be an easier sell if it also plays games.

IMO, the crux of this discussion is how large the space is beyond the "mass market". The shift to OTT/IP distro along with HEVC/H.265 decode chips built into displays/STBs looks likely to satisfy the mass market both for UHD/4K and, perhaps more to the point, improved 1080 at streamable bit rates.

IF RedRay and ODEMAX were to manifest fully at a price point the home theater/enthusiast segment could presumably handle - let's say under $500 for the HW and under $100/mo for the feed - is that market large enough to be sustainable for the vendors?

How many people does the value proposition of the PlayStation4 appeal to? How much perceivable IQ delta will there be between HEVC encoded UHD via PS4 vs .RED encoded UHD via RedRay? How many generations into UHD display tech will we need to go before that IQ delta really shows? Is the 84" Sony already there?

IMO the wild card in all this is what Apple might bring to market in terms of display tech. I am also mindful of the threshold that must be cleared in terms of content/source IQ to make any of this more than tech esoterica. For most people its content first, quality second - and there's not that much high value true UHD content extant just yet.

Cheers - #19

 

[Peter Majtan]

IMO the wild card in all this is what Apple might bring to market in terms of display tech. I am also mindful of the threshold that must be cleared in terms of content/source IQ to make any of this more than tech esoterica. For most people its content first, quality second - and there's not that much high value true UHD content extant just yet.

Cheers - #19

Hi Blair, I would not hold my breath if I were you...
IMHO - Apple will bring two different display products to the market:

A. Computer display monitor (ala Cinema Display) - connected via TB2 it will feature resolutions beyond 4K/UHD. Main aim is to provide max UI for graphic applications, allowing to see full 4K/UHD image and still have a room spare for UI elements around it. This display will not have any other connectivity to the host. It will however serve as a TB hub and provide variety of peripheral connections, such as USB3, etc...

B. Home entertainment TV (ala true Apple TV) - as this will undoubtedly feature its own computer HW (my guess is iOS type HW), it would be hard to classify it as a "monitor" - but then again you can use iMac as a monitor for another mac. So perhaps it will feature TB2 for connectivity to other macs. But its primary purpose as a home TV will mean that it has to feature standard A/V interconnects - such as HDMI (2.0) and DP. To assure full compatibility with external devices - it would need to comply with REC.2020 specs and have a HW resolution of UHD - 3840x2160...

Ultimately you will need a preview monitor for your 4K/UHD content to show you how it will appear finished - the Apple TV might be the answer. And you will need to use an A/V card (such as the BMD / AJA) to connect any such a monitor for this purpose. This is how all grading / finishing SW works, including DaVinci. So in the end you could use the new gen Cinema Display to work on your imagery - see it 1:1 and have room for UI elements around it, so you can do precise rotoscoping, masking, compositing, NR, grading, etc... - but you will still need an external 4K/UHD display device (such as the Apple TV) to "confirm" the master look...

Just my two yen...

:sifone: Peter

Edit: It would be the B - Apple TV - that you can connect to the REDRAY. Hopefully it will feature 4x HDMI to allow for proper refresh rates at full resolution...

 

[Les Dittert]

Just got the 4K Sony player .
The bad news: You have to go to www.4kactivation.com to set it up, with the serial number of your SONY UHD set.
They didn't ship the 4 Sony monitors we ordered, so I can't play anything yet.

 

[Casey Green]

Just got the 4K Sony player .
The bad news: You have to go to www.4kactivation.com to set it up, with the serial number of your SONY UHD set.
They didn't ship the 4 Sony monitors we ordered, so I can't play anything yet.

How many movies shot on RED come with it?

 

[Les Dittert]

How many movies shot on RED come with it?

There are 10 mostly lame movies that come preloaded. I know Spider man is there.
I am actually interested in Taxi Driver. Great movie and interesting to see how the grain looks.
Movie rentals will be something like $8 later this month.