Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

REDRAY Comments

Jarred Land said:
Remember, Jon doesn't have anything to do with the .RED Codec or the Compression so that is an unfair request for him.
Click to expand...

OK.

Jarred
How about doing a little demo of .RED for the users here to see for themselves ?

Here is what I would do:

Take a 1K window out of a 4K media file.
Compress this with .RED at 6 megabits.
Compress with x264 at 6 megabits.
Decompress both to uncompressed files.
Compress both of the 'stepped on' but now uncompressed with 100 megabit x264, or better yet a lossless codec.
Publish links to these here, so the world can see.

So, no need for the public to have the special decode hardware or even the codec.
How does that sound ?
Thank you!

:closedeyes:
 
So its it safe to say that as 4k Post is so data & CPU intensive that most films on ODEMAX will be at 2k resolution.
And some (many/a few) will be 2k upres to 4k and put out as 4k material.

Mine you Skyfall looked fantastic upres to Imax and that was shot on the Alexa. The story and casting was awful though.
 
Jarred Land said:
Remember, Jon doesn't have anything to do with the .RED Codec or the Compression so that is an unfair request for him.
Click to expand...

Sorry Jarred,

I'm sure someone, when the codec is finalized all the way, would be happy to show it off in the way I suggested.
It would make a great marketing tool to show a test like that.
 
Les Dittert said:
Sorry Jarred,

I'm sure someone, when the codec is finalized all the way, would be happy to show it off in the way I suggested.
It would make a great marketing tool to show a test like that.
Click to expand...

Some studios that have been testing RR have done the same test.. except taking an uncompressed frame, encoding it to .RED and then back out to uncompressed and switched back and forth.. the results from those tests is part of the reason why we are so excited.
 
Wonderful!
I love it when codecs are almost like magic!

Jarred Land said:
Some studios that have been testing RR have done the same test.. except taking an uncompressed frame, encoding it to .RED and then back out to uncompressed and switched back and forth.. the results from those tests is part of the reason why we are so excited.
Click to expand...
 
Jarred Land said:
Some studios that have been testing RR have done the same test.. except taking an uncompressed frame, encoding it to .RED and then back out to uncompressed and switched back and forth.. the results from those tests is part of the reason why we are so excited.
Click to expand...

Hahaha

I guess that is pretty much what we all will do initially...
Given that we we had a tool to decompress .RED outside the RR box.

Probably have to re-capture the signal out of RR and compare the original with that to see what is going on...

But then there will be too many "other" things in the signalchain to really evaluate...
 
Ok, it’s finally sunk in here. What we are potentially looking at is the first truly independent wide spread digital theatrical exhibition market. Well, one thing we are potentially looking at anyway.

Wow.
 
Jarred...

I understand why/how we cannot have playback outside the box, but a tool to decompress single frames, would be an excellent tool to set up workflows and signalchains.

Also, if we wanna grade otside of rec 709...

Let's say xyz

Then what after encoding .RED?
 
Wrapping my head around ways to controll the signalchain here. What are the options when encoding. Can you go from 10-bit log? Or 16 bit linear. As there usually is a bit more than a primary applied to an image, the "go from raw" answer won't apply for a lot of images.

Also... Prores 4444 would as mentioned be welcome.

With TIFFs at 4k 16bit we're talking roughlu 1,6 GB per second

Not all will be able to sustain that kind of dataflow in a sensible way...

Or maybe THAT is what is intended to controll the input from providers?

:-)

It cost only 20$ to encode... If you can manage.

:-)
 
Stuart English said:
Yes Sir.
Click to expand...

So Stuart, if the home projector will have a built in RERAY player, can we still us the external player with either the Home Projector or Crimson? Does it plug in? Or is the built in one removable and therefore upgradable (I would suspect yes?!?!?!)

Thanks.

:)
 
roryhinds said:
So its it safe to say that as 4k Post is so data & CPU intensive that most films on ODEMAX will be at 2k resolution.
And some (many/a few) will be 2k upres to 4k and put out as 4k material.

Mine you Skyfall looked fantastic upres to Imax and that was shot on the Alexa. The story and casting was awful though.
Click to expand...

I thought early in the thread it was mentioned 4k is a requirement for submission to ODEMAX?
 
Stuart English said:
And so those materials don't go out to DCP now?

Just export to TIFF or DPX .. same as you would for DCP.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily!

Our FinalDCP software does accept .R3D (including REDCOLOR3, RMD etc.), DNxHD, ProRes, CineForm, HQX, H264, almost every Quicktime codec out there, plus AVI.
DPX files are usually 10 bit, so many codecs like DNxHD, ProRes and CineForm have the same or even more bits. CineForm for instance can keep 12 bits. DCPs have 12 bits too.

The BIG hassle with making DCPs from TIFF or DPX is that you blow up a 2K movie to like 1.5 to 2 TBytes easily before you can encode. A 4K movie will get around 6-8 TBytes. Just moving that amount of data around is a BIG problem for small movie projects.

FinalDCP was actually born from the need to convert many dozens of film in like 2 weeks into DCPs. We utilize our render farm for this, as FinalDCP is the only render farm enabled DCP encoding solution now (ask why...hehe) and renders easily faster than realtime this way. The big saving is to use the original compressed codecs in which MANY movies are finished on the timeline.

It simply makes no sense to have edited in ProRes444 and then transcode to TIFF or DPX just to be able to import. There is nothing you will gain. Just the need for more diskspace.

So please consider supporting Quicktime. Or in turn, we may start talking about our render engine ;-) as I see it would help encoding .RED files easily. We are agnostic in what we can put behind.
 
Thanks Alex.

Even the broadcast stuff I have been involved with, with (at least in Norwegian context) pretty hefty budgets, are finnished in prores 4444.

There is no sensible reason to go uncompressed, even though we did (AJA) untill prores 4444.

I can see the decission to not go qt mostly as a preventive one. Not really a prctical decission.
 
Jon Farhat said:
You are correct that 2K has been the norm for feature film finish. The biggest bottleneck has been the use of Visual Effects which as you know, many VFX facilities struggle just to get 2K shots out. Having said that, more and more VFX facilities and post houses doing the DI are making the shift towards 4K finishes.

Many methods however, already work in proxies that point their scripts or color nodes to the original material for final conform. I'd love to see Nuke for instance, take advantage of using the RedRocket card in their final render pipeline. This would be amazing. Certainly DI finishes in 2K, can easily point their decision lists back to the source material, as many of the mattes and powerwindows are soft and the color correction is transferable, if in fact the 2Ks were derived (debayered) in the same way the 4K conform material would be.
Click to expand...

I would not really agree here. We have recently posted a 6 episodes (15 mins each) comedy series in full 4K on commodity hardware and a 10 nodes render farm. We never felt that we would be faster when doing it just in HD instead, sometimes quite the opposite. Clearly the final output was scaled to HD for TV airing. It was a playground project for us, to see how this performs. That 4 times the resolution will automatically blow up cost maybe 4 times strictly depends on your workflow.

As we actually went through it with 90 minutes of final output (nearly 100% bluescreen / greenscreen composites, VFX, set extensions, nearly 1300 shots), I simply know what we are talking about. We never used the proxies approach ever.

One of the biggest bottlenecks many companies face are the giant amounts of data they need to scramble.

Imagine that our project ended up with around 3 TByte in size for ALL assets including the original RED takes (only used takes included here) by using a compressed 4K workflow.

We proofed that 4K is ready for primetime, post-wise, even for independent productions. If you are interested, call me.

Here a link to the results (well, not in 4K...):
http://www.goetterwiewir.de/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSEVKu2zfrg&feature=g-all-u
http://www.youtube.com/results?sear...0.145.1420.6j8.14.0...0.0...1ac.1.0ZbuvY8AHm4

and see some shot breakdowns in our youtube channel:

http://www.youtube.com/user/magnamana
 
Hi Jon,

Hearing a few opinions that getting theatres on board for 30% might well be the hardest aspect. I think I recall Marc Weilage mentioning one area of cost advantage with the ODEMAX route for theatre owners. Could you outline some of the key advantages for theatres with this model that might offset what they could see as a 20% loss? Apart from the obvious of being able to offer superior imaging/entertainment experience. (Which I'm not trying to discount at all.)
 
Last edited:
Axel this is interesting stuff...I will be screening my feature film Path Of Souls at EFM in February and the list of theatres given to us -none of them included any 4K DCP capabilities...are there any in Berlin to your knowledge? Our 4K DCP is just about finished so we would definitely prefer to project in 4K rather than 2K.
 
Stuart English said:
And so those materials don't go out to DCP now?

Just export to TIFF or DPX .. same as you would for DCP.
Click to expand...

since when does red care how it has been done in the past? :-)
and yes there is software where you can send your video directly from FCP7 to the DCP conversion.
 
.... if the home projector will have a built in RERAY player, can we still us the external player with either the Home Projector or Crimson?...
Click to expand...

It's an interesting qustion, but as the internal REDRAY player in the REDRAY Projector (home) or CRIMSON (theatrical) has the same capabilities, there is no point in feeding one from the other.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top