REDRAY Comments

[Stephen Matthews]

doesn't the same apply to any single chip camera be it 2k 4k 8k or 480p?

 

[J Velazquez]

Surely into the future more films will be mastered in 4K, and putting things in perpective with big studios productions, if they couldn't master for the moment they will for the Avengers 2 or next Ridley Scott's movie. But if as mentioned before budgets are finite I can imagine how well can an independent production stand for now in the 4k model.

This makes me wonder how much of Sundance content, being a big festival, was actually shot or finished in 4k and I mean at least its competive sections: US Narrative, International Narrative, Documentary and Animated short films plus U.S. Documentary and Dramatic Competition and World Cinema Documentary and Dramatic Competition. At the fast rate of technological changes in film industry hope this panorama chances in a year.

For now I don't know with how much "indepentent" content will ODEMAX start compared with the traditional DCP distribution scheme but film festivals, I believe help a lot to measure exibition scenarios where not all of the content is driven by big studios.

 

[Stacey Spears]

This may have been asked, but I have not read all 91 pages. Will REDRAY ship with any preloaded demo content? e.g. Can you distribute any of the RED demo reels?

 

[Bob Gundu]

My hunch is that there will be a RED channel with free content.

This may have been asked, but I have not read all 91 pages. Will REDRAY ship with any preloaded demo content? e.g. Can you distribute any of the RED demo reels?

 

[M Most]

The Avengers was shot in 1080p... they are fucked. Those other 2 that we are intimately involved with.... There may be some info you don't know yet.

As far as I know, Avengers was recorded as Arri Raw. That is not 1080p, it is either 2880x2160 (for an Alexa Studio 4:3), or 2880x1620 (if recorded as 16x9), Bayer pattern RAW capture. And it wasn't finished as 1080p either, it was likely finished as full 2K anamorphic for the film prints and 2K DCI (2048x1080) for the DCP.

I know you guys are fond of referring to an Alexa as a 1080p camera because it's often used that way, especially for television. But it's not that when RAW capture is used, as it is on most large features that use the camera.

 

[Justin O'Neill]

Times are changing right this very second.

Phil has real life experience to back up what he says. I saw his short film at the RED Film Festival last night and he had some VFX in there that blew your freakin' mind in 4k. If he can use 4k VFX in a no budget short film the big studios can't be far behind.

 

[Bruce Allen]

short sighted.... you are completely missing the point Bruce.

No. I've acknowledged your points:
- If you shot in 4K and finished in 4K, you can release in 4K in the future and make money.
- If you shot in 4K and finished in 2K, you can re-do the post at 4K in the future and re-release at 4K and make money.

Here is my point, which you have not acknowledged: a bird in the hand is sometimes worth two in the bush.
- If you just flat out target making the best 2K film you can... chances are your film will be better. And will make more money on initial release.

That additional money you make on initial release may, if invested wisely, give you more money with which to do new projects, in 4K, in the future. Not only that, but the film, being actually better, may be in greater demand than if you had finished it in 4K and made too many creative compromises as a result.

Of course I acknowledge that things are changing... but one should acknowledge current realities too! It's just being honest. In 2014 it will likely make sense to work at 4K for everything. Right now... when After Effects can't even multithread well, let alone properly use a GPU... it doesn't make sense for every project!

We are running late. I thought computers would be faster by now. Back in 2007 I thought we'd have 4K working nicely by 2012 on desktop hardware and 4K monitors everywhere. And by 4K I mean "real 4K" not "hey, I'm playing 4K at half-res in Premiere on my non-4K screen!"

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Brian Robbins]

As far as I know, Avengers was recorded as Arri Raw. That is not 1080p, it is either 2880x2160 (for an Alexa Studio 4:3), or 2880x1620 (if recorded as 16x9), Bayer pattern RAW capture. And it wasn't finished as 1080p either, it was likely finished as full 2K anamorphic for the film prints and 2K DCI (2048x1080) for the DCP.

I know you guys are fond of referring to an Alexa as a 1080p camera because it's often used that way, especially for television. But it's not that when RAW capture is used, as it is on most large features that use the camera.

Yea, Avengers was most definitely not shot in 1080p. They recorded Arri Raw.

 

[Joseph Clark]

I am so excited to read about the Red/Odemax partnership. I understand why people here are so pumped up, and I suspect a few slow, fat giants have a lot to be worried about. It's democracy at its best. Bravo!!!

But I do have a concern. I don't own a Red camera or a VFX company, and I think it's unlikely I'll be building a hundred new movie theaters any time soon. What I want from Red is a home laser projector. But with all these pros waiting in line to snatch them up, what's to become of a lowly guy like myself? Will I have to wait for a year? Oh, well, if I have to, I will. I've decided that no JVC or Sony or Mitsubishi or Epson or BenQ is going to get any more of my dollars until I've had a chance to see a Red laser. Seriously, I hope you guys can shake up the home theater market as dramatically as the professional video one. There will be a lot of us waiting in that line, too.

 

[Stacey Spears]

But with all these pros waiting in line to snatch them up, what's to become of a lowly guy like myself? Will I have to wait for a year?

Its usually first come, first serve. Wait for the announcement and as soon as you see it go on sale, put in your order.

 

[M Most]

Phil has real life experience to back up what he says. I saw his short film at the RED Film Festival last night and he had some VFX in there that blew your freakin' mind in 4k. If he can use 4k VFX in a no budget short film the big studios can't be far behind.

He didn't have to complete 2000 VFX shots in less than 3 months. When you have the luxury of time, anything is possible. That is not the case in studio pictures with release dates.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Doh!

Doh!

Would be interested to see some examples of 2K VFX plates used with 4K practical photography screened in 4K.

IAC, I find it ironic that the computer/digital freight train that made digital cinema acquisition and modern VFX viable is, due to 4K VFX loads, the massive dead weight slowing the climb to ubiquitous 4K distribution. (Insert pithy cliche here).

Cheers - #19

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

short sighted.... you are completely missing the point Bruce.

Well then Prometheus is fucked too because there is a 0% probability that the VFX will be redone in 4k down the line except at huge expense.

 

[Scott Crawley]

Well then Prometheus is fucked too because there is a 0% probability that the VFX will be redone in 4k down the line except at huge expense.

You really believe that? Can you not see a day down the line when readily available computers will be able to handle the job in a fraction of the time? I'm willing to bet that you and I will have access to that capability within our lifetimes.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Phil has real life experience to back up what he says. I saw his short film at the RED Film Festival last night and he had some VFX in there that blew your freakin' mind in 4k. If he can use 4k VFX in a no budget short film the big studios can't be far behind.

It's not a question of "if" you can do 4k. It's certainly possible. The question is whether or not people are willing to pay for it. We finished a 5k VFX project recently. It was

A) An enormous fucking headache.
B) Required by the client.
C) Expensive to said client due to A.

VFX have been coming down in price in part because hardware improvements make working more efficient. If you're back to render times from 4 years ago that means less revisions and lower quality.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

You really believe that? Can you not see a day down the line when computing speed will be able to handle the job in a fraction of the time? I'm willing to bet that you and I will have access to that capability within our lifetimes.

It's not computing time. It's a question of pipelines.

VFX films are not just a folder with a bunch of files in them. They literally depend on a very specific set of software versions, file dependencies, database entries etc to render properly. It's why you see 10 pipeline TDs on every project. Their job is to make sure that your scene file gets the correct animation file and renders using the correct software version so that it renders as intended. And then it goes to compositors who make thousands of tweaks--many of which are resolution dependent and all based on the assumption of a 2k deliverable.

If you want to re-render Prometheus you don't just open Prometheus.max and Prometheus.mb hit render, open the Promtheus.nk file and hit render and then hand off the new frames to Technicolor for them to to re-render into the DCP. Your fluid sim depends on the animation file which depends on the model file which depends on the camera database which depends on the match move--which might be too inaccurate for 4k. Etc etc etc.

Some of the companies who worked on Prometheus have since gone out of business even. Some of the work is hand painted and isn't in any sort of resolution independent vector format.

Like most of VFX: Computers are cheap, people are expensive.

 

[Bruce Allen]

You really believe that? Can you not see a day down the line when readily available computers will be able to handle the job in a fraction of the time? I'm willing to bet that you and I will have access to that capability within our lifetimes.

Actually, I agree that Prometheus likely will be re-done in 4K. Gavin's points are very valid, but by throwing enough money at the problem you can fix them. For a Ridley Scott film it may be worth it.

In fact I will raise you one:

In our lifetimes, we will have proper light-field acquisition and post. That is, we will record not just stereo but multiple views.

Add this to the right display technology (take a look at Debevec's stuff) and you have a "holographic theatre".

Oh, and the color space and contrast ratio will be near the maximum of what the human eye can perceive.

Seen from that context, everything we are acquiring today, even 4K, is a little inadequate... but that's my point:

Make the films you want, the way you want. "Future-proofing" is not as important as getting something right that a majority of audiences can appreciate today.

When that holographic theatre of the future comes, you want to be a successful director with a bunch of "outdated" but memorable films under your belt, not an unsuccessful one with some "future proof" ones nobody has ever seen.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Eryc Tramonn]

Would be interested to see some examples of 2K VFX plates used with 4K practical photography screened in 4K.

IAC, I find it ironic that the computer/digital freight train that made digital cinema acquisition and modern VFX viable is, due to 4K VFX loads, the massive dead weight slowing the climb to ubiquitous 4K distribution. (Insert pithy cliche here).

Cheers - #19

I shot this video for a friend on an iPhone 4s a couple days after the phone was released. I agreed to do it for a couple reasons, and one was as a test to see just how far I could push the little sensor. I crunched everything back down to 1080 after I up-res'd some of the shots to 4K. Let's see who can pick them out.

Bad Lamps - Vessel

Now, this video does not satisfy the criteria you're looking to see demonstrated, Blair, but I think it does a good job of illustrating the myriad ways we will approach the situation you suggest. We have a lot of tools at our disposal now, such as fractal-based scaling.

Personally, I'm really interested to see a solution that seamlessly integrates r3d into the VFX post pipeline. Right now, it is clunky for us indies working without unlimited budgets -- but that is also merely one more area we are able to challenge ourselves creatively. It's cool. Irrespective of a refined solution, we will still get the job done.

There will always be problems. It's how we approach those problems that set us apart. And I'm not suggesting you were thinking otherwise, I get that you were simply wanting to see an example for critical analysis purposes.

My point is...we live in a new age, and less about making anyone step through my crappy little vid frame by frame trying to find one shot (although I would be really impressed if someone could tell me). When you add in the million other variables (including artists attempting to hide scaling, delivery compression, etc), I would feel pretty comfortable incorporating lower res 2K VFX material within a higher resolution canvas (depending on the shot, of course). Plus, if the director/post super are doing their jobs, they should have planned for how the material would be used. We have more solutions than ever before, and I love it.


EPIC is already the holy grail, as far as I'm concerned. The situation will simply be made ever more concrete as we move into the future.


Best,


Eryc

 

[paul engstrom]

Guys, you don't have to lecture me on 4K finishing being a good idea.

At the same time... seriously, there is a reason that Prometheus, Dragon Tattoo, The Avengers, etc did not master at it.

There is a reason that lots of big movies are still not mastering at it now.

And it's not because those guys are stupid.

It's because budgets are finite. And perhaps budgets are better spent on doing another artistic pass on a shot at lower resolution vs waiting for it to render.

You'll make more money now with a creatively-excellent 2K release than a 4K release that needed another layer of polish. And then you can re-do at 4K down the line when there is a larger paying audience who demands your creatively-excellent work at higher resolution.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Perhaps the reason they didn't master at 4k is because something like OdeMax and pervasive 4k projectors did not exist yet.

 

[Eryc Tramonn]

There are 10's of millions of iPhones supporting 1080p in pockets. How many people are shooting anything on all those? Irrespective of the qualitative judgments, we should be considering how we're going to express ourselves now that we have more power than EVER before.

EPIC represents an end game solution for me. And it will for a lot of other indies, too. Shit's going to get real.

Eryc