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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED WEAPON - Info and Data Sheets

Phil Holland said:
Yes. That's pretty much what this thread is about :)
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Well I think Jarred said something like "there is more than one Weapon"?

Maybe now we're getting a hint of what that means; I'm speculating that 'more than one Weapon' means two different sensor sizes; 6K - Epic Dragon sensor in new Weapon body, and XK (X = 8? 10?) - VV Dragon sensor in Weapon body.

I tend not to believe they'll make the VV sensor *standard* in every Weapon. The dictates of yield and price per square inch for perfect silicon go against that idea - in which case it's not (to me) a given that you can upgrade a Dragon to a big-chip Weapon.

Of course, this is ALL speculation! That's a big bump in sensor size; I had looked for (perhaps) the long-rumored Red Electronic Prime mount & lenses to be sneaked out, rather than a big chip sensor - based on nothing more than the apparent coyness about showing the mount in Jarred's teasers!

Mike
 
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I'm sworn to secrecy since seeing Weapon about a month ago. But RED is checking off boxes now. They've been working on Weapon for a while and they have been listening. A good amount of Jarred's teaser images show exactly that. He's spilling a lot of info prior to NAB and I'm surprised by that, but he's damn excited and there's more info to spill either before or at the show.

I was very fortunate to get a glimpse at Weapon and eat up some of Jarred's time. I'm not Brad Pitt so I'm very thankful :) However, I've been in the industry for a while now and am well versed and experienced in feature film production, post production, and more recently all of the UHD Broadcast realm.

When I left RSH that day I said "I am impressed". I 100% meant that.

Weapon is going to be hard to contend with. Some might say it's RED's "secret" Weapon.
 
Phil Holland said:
I'm sworn to secrecy since seeing Weapon about a month ago. But RED is checking off boxes now. They've been working on Weapon for a while and they have been listening. A good amount of Jarred's teaser images show exactly that. He's spilling a lot of info prior to NAB and I'm surprised by that, but he's damn excited and there's more info to spill either before or at the show.

I was very fortunate to get a glimpse at Weapon and eat up some of Jarred's time. I'm not Brad Pitt so I'm very thankful :) However, I've been in the industry for a while now and am well versed and experienced in feature film production, post production, and more recently all of the UHD Broadcast realm.

When I left RSH that day I said "I am impressed". I 100% meant that.

Weapon is going to be hard to contend with. Some might say it's RED's "secret" Weapon.
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Love it! Can't wait!!!
 
Hmm. Like the Fireman, I hope there will be variables to Weapon's construct.

Unlike the big boys that will truly enjoy Vista Vision and grand features, I'll be on the other end keeping my camera as compact and light weight as possible.

Hoping a 'bare bones' Carbon Weapon option is available at a reasonable price (and not only be offer in the 'Secret Top Weapon' model with all the bells and whistles). Perhaps it'll have options to upgrade later (if I wanted the VV option or other features). Just hoping for something lighter and handhold-able from the DSMC incarnation.

Now with the latest news, I hope can afford a Carbon W...
 
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Phil,
A couple of questions for you. Jarred said no sensor upgrade now, only body with whatever is inside in terms of hardware.
So, are there any pixels left after we set it to 6K? Is there unused real estate on the current dragon sensor? Enough to give us Vista Vision?
Or is the vista vision dragon going to be the sensor upgrade after the weapon body upgrade?

Vista vision would fucking rad though. I remember working as a 2nd Ac on the stuff where we were shooting plates for vfx with vv cameras. The image through the eyepiece was spectacular.

Be amazing if Red found some unused pixels on the current Dragon sensor and they gave us vista vision.
 
I'm up late and am excited about Weapon.



VistaVision has such a fascinating history in motion pictures.

In the old age of the war between television and cinema utilizing a largely square aspect ratio, widescreen became the solution for cinema to give the audience a new experience as well as a "technically" superior image. Film back then was extremely grainy. Anamorphic optics and techniques were developed. Paramount however chose a different path. They opted for a horizontal film transport using 8-perfs rather than S35's 4-perf vertical movement while still using spherical/flat lenses.

VistaVision had a real presence throughout the 1950s. Classics like White Christmas and North by Northwest come to mind. During those theatrical releases it was common for VistaVision films to be presented in either 1.66:1, 1.85:1 and 2:1. If you are a RED shooter 2:1 is a format you might be familiar with. True 8-perf projections were difficult to pull off due to the speed of the 8-perf movement and many VistaVision shot films were printed down to 4-perf S35 for theatrical release. For those lucky enough to ever see an 8-perf projection words like "seeing more" and "stunning" were used to describe the format and the images.

Time moved forward and film advancements were made. Film grain became finer, anamorphic became more viable, and VistaVision became a lesser used format. The cost of shooting 8-perf was not too attractive for studios. It became a tough sell for filmmakers.

However, the format did not die. Not at all actually. It was waiting for a new generation of filmmakers to unlock it's potential once again.

VistaVision found new life in the mid to late 1970s particularly due to the new creative and technical challenges of Visual Effects. Notably Star Wars utilized the format for optical mattes which were then printed down to S35 which really improved the quality of the composite, heck the hold up even now. And that's where we've commonly seen VistaVision used even to this day, Visual Effects. It's also how I was introduced to the format when I started working in film and VFX back in 1999.

Additionally, due to VistaVision's horizontal film transport it helped pave the way for what would become IMAX 70mm.

VistaVision was/is an extremely important format in reality. It was a format born out of an effort and desire to achieve something "more". Bigger than life images at a quality level nobody ever saw before.

With Weapon, I believe that desire is to again be reignited. In our current times of 4K and 4K+ screens, laser projectors, and new demanding display technologies that can reveal so much in captured material; I think it's a perfect time to breathe life back into the format and have it reborn in this digital cinema era.

It touches me on a personal level due to my journey in the industry and my earlier experiences shooting with film. It's also presenting some wonderful thoughts of all the possibilities of what to shoot and how to shoot with it as a format.

Can't wait to explore it's potential once again in a new way.
 
Jay Silver said:
Phil,
A couple of questions for you. Jarred said no sensor upgrade now, only body with whatever is inside in terms of hardware.
So, are there any pixels left after we set it to 6K? Is there unused real estate on the current dragon sensor? Enough to give us Vista Vision?
Or is the vista vision dragon going to be the sensor upgrade after the weapon body upgrade?

Vista vision would fucking rad though. I remember working as a 2nd Ac on the stuff where we were shooting plates for vfx with vv cameras. The image through the eyepiece was spectacular.

Be amazing if Red found some unused pixels on the current Dragon sensor and they gave us vista vision.
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I dont think from dragon size sensor will strech to VV size. But Jarred did say there were more then one weapon as been discussed. So my guess is the upgrade is just that from the old body to the new body same size sensor and the new tech abilities that go with the new body. But then the "other" weapon product which uses the same dragon sensor technology, possibly just a larger version is the Vista weapon version. Can it fit into the same size body is my question.
 
Phil, your VistaVision video cuts out around 1:17, then is black for the rest of it. Am I missing something or is that just the way the video is?
 
Jagger Christian said:
Phil, your VistaVision video cuts out around 1:17, then is black for the rest of it. Am I missing something or is that just the way the video is?
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Yep. Same happens for me.

BTW - does this now mean that the sensors will now read sideways instead of top to bottom? :-)
 
So, was the skull based on a W or a VV? ;o)

Now I understand as well the lens-mount-vulcano clip, they burned a larger hole in it. ;o)

I have to pay more attention to the "sub-text" of Jarred's images. He is brilliant in it -- obviously.
 
I think I get it. Weapon will be an 8k camera. And debayers perfect 4k. History is repeating itself. Same as the original RED ONE was ideal for HD delivery because of the 4K -> 2K/1080p downsampling (which has been emulated countless times now)...Weapon is the same concept...but now applied to 4k itself. Its the ultimate 4K delivery machine by downsampling PERFECTLY to 4K. Everyone else is still struggling to keep up with 4K sensors that debayer to 3.4...or worse upscaling 3.4 "up" to UHD.

But RED is leading the pack. Once again. And not only blazing high resolution trails, but now also by doing it with a Vista Vision sensor...and Prores recording.

This may end up being the most signiticant NAB for RED since 2006, when it all started. This may be another moment when the rest of the industry just looks over sheepishly amd says "Ugg...we're fucked".

This is a watershed moment.

Now not all 8K is created equal. Im sure all Weapons can do 8K at all spherical framings (HD, WS, 2:1, etc). But the 4:3 anamophic resolutions may be what are reserved for Carbon Weapon.

I mean think of the massive data difference btw 8KHD...and 8K 4:3....thats probabably twice the data...So Im guessing thats what the Carbon can handle....

That said...this of course means that Weapon can do 4:3 anamorphic for ALL FORMATS. This is insane. Alexa 4:3 is no longer the only game in town. In fact..Weapon dwarfes it.

But for all those Hollywood DPs that wanted to shoot at true 4:3 anamorphic on RED...well now you can. Im sure many will be enticed.

And Im sure network TV will be thrilled. A Vista Vision cinema camera that can shoot Prores? Series big and small are going to jump at this.

If the base ISO can go up at least one stop (like RED ONE MX 320iso jumped to EPIC MX 800iso)...because of Weapon's new boards....so skintone is 640-1280...and lowlight is 1600-4000...then I think its easy to see how ground beaking this NAB could be.

Add in higher frame rates...300fps 4k? 500fps 3k....and RED will be shaking the very floor at NAB. A tsunami of innovation.

These are heady times my friends. Heady times...

I guess all will be revealed...in what...two weeks?

The longest two ever...!!!
 
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Unless there are unused photo sites on the Dragon chips we already have (never counted them personally;-), then an upgrade path based on re-planting those sensors into the Weapon body would not support larger formats like VV. That suggests at least 2 versions of the Weapon will exist at some point.

What might make sense is an extension of the modular concept to include a swappable "sensor box" module that can be changed out with 4 screws like the lens mounts. This would allow the same body form factor to support both Dragon S35-ish (current) and FF/VV/MF formats. Keeping the external form factor the same maintains interchangeability with other modules, mounts, rigs, etc. Creating a body that can accommodate up to 5 years of sensor development fits RED's pattern, and would make investing in modules easier to ROI - both for RED and RedUsers.

Based on a couple of oblique notes from Jarred I do expect there might be 2 versions of the Weapon body (ala Scarlet/Epic) that have identical (or very similar) external dimensions. The upmarket (Carbon Weapon) would presumably use more Carbon fiber, weigh a little less, cost a bit more and have more processing muscle - primarily to support higher frame rates and lower compression ratios. It's my guess that either Weapon variant will support both the S35-ish and the VistaVision-ish sensor boxes, but that the lower spec body would be limited to 24fps when using the full "gate" of the larger sensor cut - OR - they could go the other way and use the ability to swap in bigger sensors as a Carbon-only feature. I assume these kinds of issues will be fully explained at the NAB reveal along with price points.

Cheers - #19
 
Jagger Christian said:
Phil, your VistaVision video cuts out around 1:17, then is black for the rest of it. Am I missing something or is that just the way the video is?
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Sadly not my video. That dude scanned in the OG neg and I think that's actually where the film stopped.

But it says much of what you need to know.

I feel occasionally in the face of what some aspects of our industry has become the maverick concepts from the olden days of motion pictures sometimes can hold more potential. The mindset is a bit more relevant for the last decade or so. And particularly now more than ever.

Some are so focused on riding on the paved road comfortably and less focused on paving new roads to take people to places they've never been before.
 
I asked this in a wrong thread, so double posting:

Can 6k Dragon footage be intercut with V,V footage?
 
Elsie N said:
I asked this in a wrong thread, so double posting:

Can 6k Dragon footage be intercut with V,V footage?
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I'm sure it can. They should have the same "sensor", just the Vista Vision has more of it (ie I believe VV is probably akin to two Dragon Sensors stacked vertically)
 
Yeah, just thinking about how I'd do it, I can see doing an image crop on Dragon footage in Premiere and if on a V, V sequence, let the image upscale... or just let the software do the crop naturally. They do have different shapes. With the available resolution, the upscale shouldn't be noticeable.

OBTW... Phil, I hope you are preparing to do an Adobe V,V sequence setting like you did for 6k.
 
Elsie N said:
Yeah, just thinking about how I'd do it, I can see doing an image crop on Dragon footage in Premiere and if on a V, V sequence, let the image upscale... or just let the software do the crop naturally. They do have different shapes. With the available resolution, the upscale shouldn't be noticeable.
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Gotcha. You could probably still crop the Vista Vision to 6K if you needed, to match Dragon 6K.

I personally deliver everything 1080p to my clients (they're broadcast), so they'd never know anyway if source material was 8K, 6K, 4K, etc. Easier to match.

But if your'e downscaling it all to 4K, I'm sure the differences would smoothe out there too...though the VV may just be a tad sharper...that's all...
 
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