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Red Raven vs Sony FS7 vs Blackmagic 4.6k

Craig Charlton

Craig Charlton

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Hey guys i am going to be joining the red family hopefully soon. I am looking at getting a red raven kit.

I have been told by other people that the sony fs7 and blackmagic 4.6k image will be far superior than the red raven image, due to all the compression ratios. I would like to choose a camera which will have upgrade options in the future. Iv not heard of any upgrade paths for the raven yet in motion? im sure there will be in the future.

I would be using the camera for - Mainly Music videos, Commercials and Small Corperate.

Have you guys got any views on this? It would help.

Thanks

Craig
 
They have different uses IMO. I have an FS7 and love it and keeping it for a good while, but I'm getting a Red for the more higher end projects.

FS7 is a great doc / run and gun camera. Built in NDs, XLRs, good 4K compressed codec and good low light allow you to work really quickly. CineEI is quite filmic as well.

But Red is in much bigger demand for better budget projects. I think many people just consider Red to have a more "filmic" image than Sony. For more production oriented jobs, Red is way more of a staple than the FS7.

i really like the new URSA color science, but all BM models in the past have had pretty serious issues upon release which is probably why I've never seen a BM on a decent budget job, where reliability is probably the #1 criteria.

I'm keeping the FS7 which will fit in nicely with Red, but for different types of projects.
 
I'd take into consideration your region/market. I've been told by a couple of people in the UK that they had trouble renting their Epics, and had since changed to Sony cameras (Midrange FSseries) and had much better traction. Not sure how it is in Australia, but that's definitely something I'd take into consideration (being that the Sony's will end up in the same price range [or cheaper] than a kitted out Raven.)
 
I have both a FS7 and a Dragon. I'm pretty confident the Raven will look better than the FS7. I have an easy time renting it out, and a bit more difficulties with the RED. That's why I have a Raven in order, hoping to persuade some producers over to Red. The broadcast world have been reluctant up here.
You should really think about your market first. Get the camera you can pay off the fastest first. Then get another camera later if that works out. I owned a lot of other cameras before I got my first RED

But reading what you want to use the camera for, I think the Raven would be perfect. Only drawback is that you can't get one before April/May probably.

How is much could you make using a FS7 in that time?
Then you sell it and put the money towards the Raven

Edit: I mostly rent out the gear and myself, not so often the gear on its own
 

Here's some test footage from the 4.6k BM camera.
The BM will obviously be sharper than the raven. The raven maxes out at 4K in 16:9 and DCI 4K aspect ratio.
 
Judging only by the image (it's what matters most, isn't it?) I'd say, forget about FS7 (videoish look even if you try in post), think about BM if your budget is tight, if not, go Raven.

I personally think that Raven is a killer offer, Dragon S35 sensor, redcode raw, compact size, compatibility with Weapon modules, clear upgrade path in the future (to a yet unannounced Scarlet Dragon replacement).

The only drawback is Canon mount only, but I suppose that you won't be using expensive PL glass anyway.
 
Milano Questa said:
Here's some test footage from the 4.6k BM camera.
The BM will obviously be sharper than the raven. The raven maxes out at 4K in 16:9 and DCI 4K aspect ratio.
Click to expand...

That is incorrect and outdated information. RAVEN shoots up to 4608x2160 at 3:1 REDCODE compression, as stated here: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?136564-RED-RAVEN-Info-and-Data-Sheets

When announced it was 4K, but "everything is subject to change", and RED decided to increase the spec.

Some read 4608 pixels wide as 4.6K, some read it as 4.5K, but nobody today would claim that it's limited to 4K DCI.
 
If you need RAW FS7 is out of the equation.

Raven: 2K Prores, 4.5 RAW not audio inputs, not evf for $10K
Ursa Mini: 4K Prores 4.6 RAW audio imputs, EVF and shoulder mount for about $8K


IMHO I think overall the URSA mini is more value for money, Not doub about blackmagic Is giving a hardtime to RED in the last few years. i think for new comer the blackmagic proposition is the way to go. For people that is familiar with RED system probably raven is safer but There is very little gain for all the extra money.
 
To clarify, the FS7 shoots raw, but it is bloody awful and I have given up on it.

As as for the rest, it gets really boring people deciding which is the better camera between 2 cameras that aren't even out yet.

we know the image quality of Raven because it is Dragon at 4K and there is loads of this material out there.

the 4.6k Ursa clips that are out so far sending bmduser into meltdown looks pretty average to me. Lots of blown skies and some emulation LUTS all over it. I'd wait until we get some ungraded rushes before claiming it in the same league as the FS7, let alone a Dragon sensor Red. If we were to look at their past track record one could be forgiven for greeting its impending arrival with a degree of skepticism.

Hopefully this will be their 'Sigma ART' moment where everything comes together and is a brilliant all rounder.


Edit: in what way has BM given Red a hard time? They are not even vaguely operating in the same sphere. Even with Raven.


The only people that BM might worry up until now are Canon's DSLR range and the lower end C cameras.
 
Andrey Blanco said:
If you need RAW FS7 is out of the equation.

Raven: 2K Prores, 4.5 RAW not audio inputs, not evf for $10K
Ursa Mini: 4K Prores 4.6 RAW audio imputs, EVF and shoulder mount for about $8K


IMHO I think overall the URSA mini is more value for money, Not doub about blackmagic Is giving a hardtime to RED in the last few years. i think for new comer the blackmagic proposition is the way to go. For people that is familiar with RED system probably raven is safer but There is very little gain for all the extra money.
Click to expand...

Disagree. Imagine you are trying to work your way up the food chain and can offer yourself and your camera as an extra perspective on a shoot (whether for principal footage or BTS). What would match better with the big dogs you are crewing for, DRAGON or BMCC? The RAVEN will speed your ascent far faster than a BMCC plus $2K spent trying to buy affection.
 
Why do you think RED was force to give away 4.5K in the raven: because they are Such a Nice Guys?

No Way Man, is because they saw how few people was exited about 4K and they realized about their mistake, I'm pretty sure they can out put 5K RAW from RAVEN f they want to...

This is Business Sir. Sorry if you are feed with Marketing



Ben Scott said:
To clarify, the FS7 shoots raw, but it is bloody awful and I have given up on it.


Edit: in what way has BM given Red a hard time? They are not even vaguely operating in the same sphere. Even with Raven.
Click to expand...


$2K? You will need at least $16K to match a $8K URSA MINI shoulder rig. If the BM Claims about Dynamic Range are True I really doubt anybody will notice the difference between the two cameras. the few footage from URSA 4.6K looks pretty good to me.


Michael Tiemann said:
Disagree. Imagine you are trying to work your way up the food chain and can offer yourself and your camera as an extra perspective on a shoot (whether for principal footage or BTS). What would match better with the big dogs you are crewing for, DRAGON or BMCC? The RAVEN will speed your ascent far faster than a BMCC plus $2K spent trying to buy affection.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Looking at those latest URSA 4.6K clips, it appears to still have the same motion characteristics as the other BMD sensors. I had a BMCC and always liked the image but wasn't a fan of the motion being "loose." It's hard to describe but I know it when I see it. The image looks nice and clean though.
 
Just the fact that Raven is down to pretty much everything except the mount the same as a weapon will, not only provide for endless amount of acessories, also there will be a flood of second hand weapon gear and red epic gear available when everyone is tough the upgrade phase. A lot of old touch screens, and a huge load of brand new XL battery modules will be avialble for pennies. As a lot of people upgrading their dragon will, one buy a lot of new stuff, and secondly they most likely want to get rid of some of the stuff that comes with the upgrade. So trolling behind that cue of high end weapon users will be a really nice position for raven owners. For the BM camera there is no such stream of stuff to tap into, same goes for the FS7.

Then also everyone that worked with r3d´s and got the hang of it would not compare the 3. And the difference in sensor size and aspect ratios is not really an issue. Lets face it, I make 99% commercials... it happens they are 16:9 and it happens that TV is the main media, but that is very much in for a change and aspect ratios are pretty much a pick of choice these days and even more so in the future so raven being more wide screen than the tv format I only see as a plus, just as I see the 2:1 on dragon and weapon as a bonus.

also the sharpness of the Raven is better than current dragons according to tests as the new standard OLPF is showing improvement in fidelity and and sharpness and the BM cameras had and also have a problem with to little pre debayer softness so asking for the sharpest camera of the three is possibly not such a vice thing to wish for, simply the BM has problems being to sharp with moire and all that.

I have not used the sony´s much but I used the BM cameras and again different tools could be compared but there is so much stuff that red has going so the comparison is stupid...


Ask yourself the following:

Fool control is it available for the camera or is it something that will come later?
how is the frame summing and triggering working on the camera?
Is it easy to set up the speed ramping?
HDR multipass?
Options for compressions?
FPS options?
Meta data grading?
Weight and size, does it matter will you use it with a gimbal?
Whats there to add on, for red there is modules. modules that also fits more beasty cameras if you decide to upgrade...
If you learn to shoot with a raven, then you know exactly how a 8k Weapon works, heck you can even rent such and use all the stuff you bought for you little raven and you would know not only how they work but also that they fit perfectly....

Raven intercuts perfectly with.... red epic dragon 6k, red scarlet dragon 5k, weapon 6k weapon 8k and also raven footage would do fine in a red one MX timeline mixed with mysterium X footage and what not...

As I see it It´s the little cool kid that has both great parents and brothers and sisters to back him up. That way raven is very different from the BM camera and also the FS7.
 
The Mini 4.6K was my intended purchase up until Raven was announced. What held me back from pre ordering (other than BM's notoriously disrespectful customer relations) was the HD sensor crop at anything over 60fps. Given that I shoot sports, I will be using a lot of HFR, and was concerned these clips would look soft. The crop during HFR is an obscene 3.5x (in FF terms) which is a complete deal breaker for me, as it would take a fisheye to get anything wider than 38mm.

Also, while 4.6K RAW at 3:1 sounds spectacular, the reality is that I have absolutely no desire to deal with those unwieldy file sizes.

Fast forward to the release of this 4.6K test footage, and I'm glad I went with Raven. The Mini footage looks pretty great for the price, but something just feels off to me. Also, the couple scattered 120fps clips look like absolute hell.

In the right hands, I'm sure either of these cameras will be fantastic. But for me, Raven is undeniably the better option. Add in FoolControl, and it's really no comparison.

PS. FS7 Menu system is an absolute nightmare.
 
Michael Tiemann said:
That is incorrect and outdated information. RAVEN shoots up to 4608x2160 at 3:1 REDCODE compression, as stated here: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?136564-RED-RAVEN-Info-and-Data-Sheets

When announced it was 4K, but "everything is subject to change", and RED decided to increase the spec.

Some read 4608 pixels wide as 4.6K, some read it as 4.5K, but nobody today would claim that it's limited to 4K DCI.
Click to expand...

Well, since you can't downscale Raven's 4.5k image to DCI 4K or UHD i think it's useless. Raven is still only 4K for me.
 
Björn Benckert said:
Weight and size, does it matter will you use it with a gimbal?
Click to expand...

Not only that, if you put an URSA Mini on a gimbal, how the heck are you going to control camera settings, considering the touch screen is mounted on the side of the unit? It would be challenging at best to flip it open and adjust. Raven wins hands down in this regard.
 
@Kevin good point on using the Ursa on a gimbal. Not only that but the dimensions of it I feel will make it more difficult. RED's cube sized cameras are seemingly meant for gimbal work.

For what it's worth, to the original poster: I just spent my last 5 gigs shooting on the FS7 and have another commercial gig coming up in San Francisco in 2 weeks. I pleaded pretty hard to get a Scarlet Dragon for this gig instead of an FS7 and thank god they said yes. Don't get me wrong, the FS7 is great for many situations, but my god... that menu drives me absolutely insane. Also, a majority of the gigs were for commercial type stuff and I feel like that's not particularly where the FS7 shines the most.

If it were me, I would say Raven. Which is why I pre-ordered one pretty much immediately. I have been renting for jobs for the past year and a half and now finally buying. Seems like the right time.

p.s. If you do a lot of gimbal work I would also say Raven 100% forget about the rest. You are going to have a hell of time trying to balance the FS7 on a Ronin. ^_^


EDIT: Happy Thanksgiving everyone!
 
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