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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Red Raven vs Sony FS7 vs Blackmagic 4.6k

Another thing to think about is customer service. Red has insane customer service. Best I've ever experienced for any camera company.

Sony CS from personal experience is pretty good if you live in LA. Then you can just stop by the Sony Service Center and they are always super helpful. If you don't live in LA, you have to deal with a clueless CS rep at a call center, then it sucks as I've been through that as well.

Black Magic, as reported by many, has a reputation for bad / very slow CS.
 
Ben Scott said:
I could certainly make more money shooting Alexa than Red. Doesn't matter which Alexa and doesn't matter what the final image looks like. That's just how Producers are.
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yea my arri does very well, so well I'm grabbing a second one... its good to have variety, hell flex prices are falling too i might just grab one of those too i keep joking
 
Hey Everyone,

Some great feedback here on all 3 systems. I am leaning still towards buying red raven rather than sony and blackmagic. This is just for reliability of the camera and the customer service.
I assume red will put in some place some sort of upgrade options down the line for the raven either for a newer raven or to scarlet weapon who knows?

I thought about buying a Scarlet Dragon, but i was told to go for the raven instead. Due to it being up to date new gear DSMC 2.
16.5 DR and 4.5k is pretty much all i would ever need anyway. Plus its all my mac system could handle at the moment.
The crop factor doesnt bother me too much as i dont need to go too wide.

The only thing with the raven is 4.5k 120fps compression 15:1 - is this even useable? id really like 120 fps at full Res?
 
I'm kind of in this situation too. Sitting back waiting to see Raven VS. Ursa Mini 4.6 play out. Some Ursa footage has surfaced and I have to say, not having even seen Raven footage I'm leaning towards RED because of 2 things already proven: 1) the Dragon sensor. 2) RED customer service and communication (It's amazing how Jarred & Brent interact with people here on RedUser). Black Magic doesn't quite have either of those. It might in the future as the company and cameras mature, but by then RED will be even further along and I'll already be in the ecosystem.
 
Craig Charlton said:
The only thing with the raven is 4.5k 120fps compression 15:1 - is this even useable? id really like 120 fps at full Res?
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Craig I think it should be more than usable. Weve shot close to 15:1 on Epic Mx at 120fps @ 4K, and it looked AMAZING. Just make sure to have proper exposure.

You can see samples here, from our MONUMENT GUYS campaign, for History (all the slow-mo hero shots of the cast).

The new DSMC2 boards should make Raven even better.
 
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Nick Morrison said:
Craig I think it should be more than usable. Weve shot 15:1 on Epic Mx at 120fps @ 4K, and it looked AMAZING. Just make sure to have proper exposure.

The new weapon boards shoule make Raven even better.
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Very good to hear!

Craig, also keep in mind that that straight 4K is 13:1, and 4K 16:9 will be 12:1.
 
Nathan DuMoulin said:
Very good to hear!

Craig, also keep in mind that that straight 4K is 13:1, and 4K 16:9 will be 12:1.
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That 12:1 should look great. Bear in mind, my team and I regularly shoot 10:1 5K on Epic Dragon, and it looks excellent. The DSMC2 boards appear to be noticeably cleaner, so I don't see 12:1 being an issue at all. Again, just make sure you have good exposure. No need to introduce extra noise when shooting at lower compressions.
 
Also, everyone should really check on this thread from Matt Ryan and Nick Fury:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...ll-files-for-download)-Bonus-4K-60-amp-120FPS

Matt has one clip shot 4K @120fps on Weapon at 20:1 compression. That's significantly WORSE than RAVEN (I believe reason why compression was so low was camera was also generating 120ps 2K 4444 quicktimes).

Def look at at this R3D. I for one was BLOWN AWAY.

1) First of all, Mat said the actualy exposure was closer to 640. But you can easily raise the ISO to 4000-5000 and see NO NOISE.

I was stunned.

2) Again, this is 20:1 at 120fps!!! And it's underxeposed! And it has NO NOISE??!!

WTF?!

I thought this clip alone was the best news for how GOOD RAVEN IS GOING TO BE.

Actually, how AMAZING RAVEN IS GOING TO BE.

Don't forget, the new DSMC2 boards look to have an extra 1.5 stops lattitude than current Epic/Scarlet Dragon cameras.

So....get ready for a real treat with Raven!!
 
Nick Morrison said:
That 12:1 should look great. Bear in mind, my team and I regularly shoot 10:1 5K on Epic Dragon, and it looks excellent. The DSMC2 boards appear to be noticeably cleaner, so I don't see 12:1 being an issue at all. Again, just make sure you have good exposure. No need to introduce extra noise when shooting at lower compressions.
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I'm off on a tangent here, but in a controlled studio environment where the sensor can handle more latitude than the scene requires, would it be beneficial to ETTR (or rate the camera at a specific ISO)? Given that noise is one of the byproducts of higher compression and 120fps will push up into 12:1 to 15:1, would this help to reduce compression noise at all?
 
Nathan DuMoulin said:
I'm off on a tangent here, but in a controlled studio environment where the sensor can handle more latitude than the scene requires, would it be beneficial to ETTR (or rate the camera at a specific ISO)? Given that noise is one of the byproducts of higher compression and 120fps will push up into 12:1 to 15:1, would this help to reduce compression noise at all?
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Yup, exactly. If you're nervous about noise because of compression, feed the camera more light. Ie drop your ISO, and expose accordingly.

Think of exposure on RED as an equation, comprised of three equal parts that need to be kept in balance:

RESOLUTION (Ks) + EXPOSURE (ISO) + COMPRESSION = DEGREE OF NOISE

Generally, if you take from one, you need to feed another, to keep the system in balance.

We've found on Epic Dragon, this produces a CLEAN image on LLO:

6K x 800 ISO x 8:1 = NO NOISE

If we plan to shoot at higher compressions, we try and feed camera more light, and drop the ISO to compensate, so:

6K x 400/640 ISO x 10:1 = PROBABLY NO NOISE

However, in a perfectly lit environment on a white cyc, we've gotten away with this with no noise:

5K x 800 ISO x 10:1 = NO NOISE

This is what we used last weekend, and it worked out great!

You also start to get a feel for what generates noise. Compression noise is greatly influenced by how complicated a background is. Trees, water, and foliage are natural compression killers...and benefit from LESS compression, on any camera system. In those situations, 5:1 to 8:1 are def advisable. If it's a really dense background, go as low as you can go (on "Prometheus" for example, they shot some of the Iceland plates at lower compression than rest of movie, because of how challenging the terrain was to shoot digitally).

A white cyc can obviously be much more forgiving, and allow you to raise compression, with almost no penalty (like we found last week).

But bear this in mind: an underexposed image that's captured with HIGH COMPRESSION, may receive the double whammy of AMPLIFIED NOISE. Ie the lowlight noise will then be further exacerbated by the high compression. This is why you always want to expose slow-mo on RAVEN as brightly you can. Create a clean signal chain so that the high compression has nothing to feast on.

Put another way, when shooting SLOW-MO on RAVEN and using higher compressions, I def recommend dropping ISO and pumping in more light.

Same for when you drop K's and shoot at 3K. You're now cropped in tighter on the noise, so more light and less compression will be your friends.

Again, about keeping the EXPOSURE CHAIN in balance.

It's ok to rob one part of the chain, that happens. Just try and remember to balance it out across other parts of the system.

But never do this:

2K x 4000 ISO x 20:1 and expect to get good results. Odds are, you just never will!

Hope this helps!

best
 
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Nick Morrison said:
Think of exposure on RED as an equation, comprised of three equal parts that need to be kept in balance:

RESOLUTION (Ks) + EXPOSURE (ISO) + COMPRESSION = DEGREE OF NOISE

Generally, if you take from one, you need to feed another, to keep the system in balance.
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This post was fantastic. Thank you!

That being said, I find it strange that you refer to "low compression" as the higher ratios. In my experience, lower compression means less processing, which means larger file sizes, a lower ratio, and higher quality. Is it the other way around in the Red world, or?

Example:
3:1 = less compressed = lower compression
9:1 = more compressed = higher compression
 
Nathan DuMoulin said:
This post was fantastic. Thank you!

That being said, I find it strange that you refer to "low compression" as the higher ratios. In my experience, lower compression means less processing, which means larger file sizes, a lower ratio, and higher quality. Is it the other way around in the Red world, or?

Example:
3:1 = less compressed = lower compression
9:1 = more compressed = higher compression
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Yeah it's late, I used them the wrong way! I'll flip them back.
 
Nick Morrison said:
Yeah it's late, I used them the wrong way! I'll flip them back.
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lol, no worries. I definitely understood everything you said, and it was invaluable information. Again, much appreciated.

I was just slightly confused. :)

EDIT: Just re read the edited version, and it's perfect. I think that will help a ton of users.
 
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