RED Raptor 8k VV discussion

[Aaron Bernakevitch]

Can someone summarize the main points from the live stream? Do we know

Base ISO
Max usable ISO
Max FPS in 8K VV
Is there a tradein upgrade path.
Do any DSMC or DSMC2 aks work on these?
When these will ship to the avg user (i.e not Michael Bay or Sodaberg?)
Data rates for cards?

Thanks all super excited stuff.

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

Can someone summarize the main points from the live stream? Do we know

Base ISO
Max usable ISO
Max FPS in 8K VV
Is there a tradein upgrade path.
Do any DSMC or DSMC2 aks work on these?
When these will ship to the avg user (i.e not Michael Bay or Sodaberg?)
Data rates for cards?

Thanks all super excited stuff.

No
No
120
No
No
3-4weeks for preorders
800MBps

 

[Billy Cano]

No
No
120
No
No
3-4weeks for preorders
800MBps

The only thing I would add is that you can use the battery belt and ac bricks from the DSMC/DSMC2 line up, but that's about it. Most Komodo accessories carry over.

 

[OntheWAVE]

Yes fantastic times. Now if only they could engineer the red to handle eMount lenses that would be the end all solution for us!

 

[Björn Benckert]

The only thing I would add is that you can use the battery belt and ac bricks from the DSMC/DSMC2 line up, but that's about it. Most Komodo accessories carry over.

What Komodo accessories carry over? Lens adapters, but thats about it no?

 

[Mark K.]

Am I the only one really confused by this camera? 

I was really interested to see what Red would come up with (and the mid-range of the camera market has been painfully sparse for last few years). 

But a stills lens mount only (even with a locking mechanism)? No accessory power outputs? A v-mount plate that will only fit a few mini v-mount batteries that are out there? No internal ND solution (beyond the hodge podge "slot-in" style lens adapters that are just a dust super highway to the sensor)? And a $2750 USD, 7" monitor (for a small camera body) that appears to require mounting directly on top of the camera (where the top handle needs to be)?

As much horsepower as they've squeezed under the bonnet, it's those operational aspects that make a camera appealing these days (they all make good-enough pictures).

Why would you not address those KEY elements on a $24,500 camera? How many of the solo-shooter "put a stills lens and monitor on and go" types are going to spend that much on a camera (especially one with the controls on the assistant's side? It's a camera priced, and (at least partially) designed for a camera crew to work with it, and yet it's going to require a tonne of rigging gack to make it operational for that conventional style of production.

I guess the question now is, is the Raptor worth all of those operational compromises for the relatively reasonable price of $24,500 USD? You'll have to add some irritating v-mount-to-v-mount power distro box out the back of it. And you'll need to add RF adapters up front, possibly with additional bracketry to brace them to that slew of 1/4"-20s on the front of the body (so that they don't flex due to the structural costs of the filter slots, and the undersized flange of the RF mount).

Personally, I'm finding it pretty hard to see the appeal. It just doesn't bring much to the table except higher resolutions and framerates that I very rarely need.

The simplified control panel on the assistant's side is nice though. Needing breakout cables just to jam timecode etc? Not so much.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Am I the only one really confused by this camera? 

I was really interested to see what Red would come up with (and the mid-range of the camera market has been painfully sparse for last few years). 

But a stills lens mount only (even with a locking mechanism)? No accessory power outputs? A v-mount plate that will only fit a few mini v-mount batteries that are out there? No internal ND solution (beyond the hodge podge "slot-in" style lens adapters that are just a dust super highway to the sensor)? And a $2750 USD, 7" monitor (for a small camera body) that appears to require mounting directly on top of the camera (where the top handle needs to be)?

As much horsepower as they've squeezed under the bonnet, it's those operational aspects that make a camera appealing these days (they all make good-enough pictures).

Why would you not address those KEY elements on a $24,500 camera? How many of the solo-shooter "put a stills lens and monitor on and go" types are going to spend that much on a camera (especially one with the controls on the assistant's side? It's a camera priced, and (at least partially) designed for a camera crew to work with it, and yet it's going to require a tonne of rigging gack to make it operational for that conventional style of production.

I guess the question now is, is the Raptor worth all of those operational compromises for the relatively reasonable price of $24,500 USD? You'll have to add some irritating v-mount-to-v-mount power distro box out the back of it. And you'll need to add RF adapters up front, possibly with additional bracketry to brace them to that slew of 1/4"-20s on the front of the body (so that they don't flex due to the structural costs of the filter slots, and the undersized flange of the RF mount).

Personally, I'm finding it pretty hard to see the appeal. It just doesn't bring much to the table except higher resolutions and framerates that I very rarely need.

The simplified control panel on the assistant's side is nice though. Needing breakout cables just to jam timecode etc? Not so much.

When it comes to the mount I don't understand the criticism. This mount has a locking mechanism and it enables adapters to almost any kind of other mounts with additional functionalities. You can easily mount a rock-solid PL mount on this, or you can have a focal reducer to get VV style images at lower resolution and higher speeds, or you can get VNDs, or EF mount with M42 adapter for vintage still glass. You can do whatever you want really, instead of having to buy specific Raptor based mounts that needs to be screwed on.

I'm a bit confused as to why the RF mount gets misunderstood this much. The problem has always been that it's flimsy, but with a locking mechanism that's not really a problem anymore. I'd just wished it was there on the Komodo as well.

As for the monitor, yes, I agree, this has been the usual problem with Red cameras. In normal shooting conditions in narrative work where you have handheld work etc. you usually want to be able to move the monitor around to fit the workflow you're in. If you shoot hand held, shoulder rig, you want to have the monitor in front of your face, how would you be able to do this?
I have used an old 7" monitor from the first Red One on my DSMC2, attached with the Red Arm and a cable. It works much better than any up to date monitor solution because it's adaptable to how you actually shoot handheld with a shoulder rig.

Overall, monitor solutions on Red cameras are the worst part of them. I've already addressed my criticism over Komodo's problem with monitors, but for the DSMC2s as well, there's just no really innovative and nice way to work with monitors.

It would be so much easier if we just had a normal, non-touch, no bells and whistles, monitor in it's most basic form, almost like the shape of an iPhone, but purely a monitor, able to be rigged on a Red Arm and flexible enough to be moved around anywhere.

It doesn't have to be complicated.

 

[vincent kardasik]

As for the monitor, yes, I agree, this has been the usual problem with Red cameras. In normal shooting conditions in narrative work where you have handheld work etc. you usually want to be able to move the monitor around to fit the workflow you're in. If you shoot hand held, shoulder rig, you want to have the monitor in front of your face, how would you be able to do this?
I have used an old 7" monitor from the first Red One on my DSMC2, attached with the Red Arm and a cable. It works much better than any up to date monitor solution because it's adaptable to how you actually shoot handheld with a shoulder rig.

Overall, monitor solutions on Red cameras are the worst part of them. I've already addressed my criticism over Komodo's problem with monitors, but for the DSMC2s as well, there's just no really innovative and nice way to work with monitors.

It would be so much easier if we just had a normal, non-touch, no bells and whistles, monitor in it's most basic form, almost like the shape of an iPhone, but purely a monitor, able to be rigged on a Red Arm and flexible enough to be moved around anywhere.

It doesn't have to be complicated.

Regarding monitor, for the Komodo, I use a small HD with Red control. I had to send the screen back for replacement but beside that, it works great and it's really confortable to navigate through the menu when I don't want to control the camera through the built-in screen.
This is my first time using a non Red monitor on a Red camera and I get used to it to a point where I did not order a screen for the VRaptor as I plan to do the same and make use of the two SDI outputs.
I worked a lot with the 7 and 4,7 touch screens, it's great to not have to deal with cables but I know what you mean regarding modularity especially when used with pogo to pogo cables...
With Komodo, Red really opened the door to 3rd party manufacturer and that's something I really appreciate.
I will skip the Red monitor for now and probably use one of my small HD with the VRaptor then depending of the releases, I will opt for touch screen with control over the camera.

 

[Mark K.]

When it comes to the mount I don't understand the criticism. This mount has a locking mechanism and it enables adapters to almost any kind of other mounts with additional functionalities. You can easily mount a rock-solid PL mount on this, or you can have a focal reducer to get VV style images at lower resolution and higher speeds, or you can get VNDs, or EF mount with M42 adapter for vintage still glass. You can do whatever you want really, instead of having to buy specific Raptor based mounts that needs to be screwed on.

I'm a bit confused as to why the RF mount gets misunderstood this much. The problem has always been that it's flimsy, but with a locking mechanism that's not really a problem anymore. I'd just wished it was there on the Komodo as well.

The criticism (or let's say "skepticism" for now - until someone can show some proof of this RF mount handling some larger cine glass without trouble) is because the RF mount is designed for mirrorless stills cameras, and has a fraction of the usual amount of metal, we'd use to hold conventional cinema lenses in place. And where structural rigidity is concerned - there's no replacement for displacement.

Will this be an issue for anyone using something like Zeiss Supreme Primes or Sigma Cines with the camera? No. I'm sure it'll handle 1-2kg just fine. But 3.5kg Cooke S7s? Or zooms that can get up to 10kg+? How far are you willing to trust those little slivers of metal that hold an RF lens in place? Canon never designed it with those kinds of tolerances in mind (why would they), but in the motion picture world, we work with much heavier hardware, and it needs to be considered.

Here are some photos that help illustrate the issue better than I can:

This is an RF Lens Mount, you can see the grooves that do the load bearing and hold the lens in place:

This is Arri's LPL mount (which is also a reasonably short flange and can be adapted to other mounts) note the size of the bracing sections on the body cap:

This is Sony's discontinued FZ mount:

And this is an adapter that fits into Kinefinity's "Kinemount" universal mounting system (again, note the size of the structural sections that brace the mount in place):

I think it's pretty immediately apparent which of these mounts is the odd one out.

Add to that the prospect of lens adapters that have large holes cut out of the side of them (for drop-in filters), and you're adding yet more structural concerns. There's been plenty of Komodo BTS footage posted online showing the flex that units like the Kippertie Revolva (RF) will display when weight's applied to them. And you can hardly blame the accessory manufacturers for that - they're working with a lens mount that's inherently compromised for this purpose.

Again, that's not going to stop it working just fine with lightweight lenses, but it's something that's going to have to be considered when using larger glass.

Hopefully someone can do a video and prove that actually, Red have built an unflappably rigid version of the RF mount, that won't flex no-matter the pressure placed on it. Then I'll by all means retract my skepticism happily. But I'm not hopeful that it'll be possible - there's a reason all of the "proper" interchangeable mount systems I've posted above, all use larger flanges to hold everything in place.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Regarding monitor, for the Komodo, I use a small HD with Red control. I had to send the screen back for replacement but beside that, it works great and it's really confortable to navigate through the menu when I don't want to control the camera through the built-in screen.
This is my first time using a non Red monitor on a Red camera and I get used to it to a point where I did not order a screen for the VRaptor as I plan to do the same and make use of the two SDI outputs.
I worked a lot with the 7 and 4,7 touch screens, it's great to not have to deal with cables but I know what you mean regarding modularity especially when used with pogo to pogo cables...
With Komodo, Red really opened the door to 3rd party manufacturer and that's something I really appreciate.
I will skip the Red monitor for now and probably use one of my small HD with the VRaptor then depending of the releases, I will opt for touch screen with control over the camera.

What "works" is not really the same as what is "best". The SDI monitors on Komodo has already had it's share of problems and it's extremely inconvenient to have to keep plugging cables in and out when changing batteries. For a fast-paced narrative shoot, keeping the gear with as little downtime as possible is very important. All the top-mounted displays for Red only makes sense when you put the camera on a tripod at lower than your height or shot handheld not higher than your face. This is very limiting and not at all adapted to how things are done on set.

A low key electronic Red Arm that can push the signal to the top while still being able to use a top handle, and a monitor that is very stripped down, almost like an iPhone OLED screen that's only a screen and with very little "frame" around the screen at 7" would be extremely smooth for any type of shooting. On my DSCM2, the old Red One 7" monitor on a Red Arm is vastly more superior than any direct attached monitor on current Red cameras. Sure, it's not the same image quality, but I rather have that monitor being able to move it around all over the place and for any kind of camera setup, than trying to manage a monitor that is very limited in how you can re-arrange it.

This is how Red cameras are usually shown and how production kits are made.

How is this really practical for anything but shoulder height shooting? It's very limited.

Compared to this

Which is about the needs of a production.

Simplifying the on-set production nightmare that is a camera with cables everywhere, wireless video, remote follow focuses, eyepieces, flexible monitors, rigs for handheld, tripods, dollys, cranes etc.
The key, in my opinion, is not to simplify down to cableless setups but lose the flexibility, it's about simplifying things down without losing flexibility.

Fincher had the right idea when he requested the Xenomorphs, while the Ranger and Panavision is built on similar ideas. But I'd hoped that monitors could be made to better fit flexibility in this regard, strip away unnecessary cables and things taking up space, focusing on the barebone, flexible monitor.
I've never been a fan of the monitor setup in the first image, but for Komodo I'd take it if they made a dedicated BP powered one that can be run from the top connection.

But I'd really like to see them do a modular design on monitors. Let us have electronic Red Arms that attach to the top of the camera on every Red model from DSMC2 to Komodo and Raptor, while the monitor piece itself attaches to the arm. That way, we can have ONE monitor for every camera, but use different electronic Red Arms that fit with each camera type.

 

[Greg M]

multi-format 8K sensor- with the ability to shoot 8K Large Format or 6K S35

Is this a new feature that gives us full frame 6k or is 6k S35 just the same sensor crop we have now in Monstro VV?

 

[Jason beaumont]

Pretty sure its just a crop

 

[Mark Andersen]

It would appear that v mount batts need to be of the "Micro" variety, which is a limited selection, if they are over 3" wide they may not fit without an adaptor. , can anyone confirm this? I actually ordered some Core SWX Micro batts today in the 150 Wh variety, I get the feeling these are gonna be a hot commodity.

 

[vincent kardasik]

What "works" is not really the same as what is "best".

There is always room for improvement so for now I go with what works and I’m trying to look for what is best.
In the productions I work, we move from really fast action set-up to studio within the same half day, my camera is in a water housing at sunrise then on my shoulder at 10am… A couple years ago, with DSMC2, it took me 30mn to jump from one set-up to another, nowadays, with 3rd parties jumping into the game, it’s done in 10mn, that’s a major improvement.
What works for me may not be the best for you but working with different camera systems, for now, Red so far offered me the most flexibility and it keeps on getting better.

 

[Aaron Bernakevitch]

Also can it record pro res or only r3d's

 

[Phil Holland]

Also can it record pro res or only r3d's

On the live stream it was mentioned it can do ProRes. The camera I tested didn't have it enabled, but based on what was said they are waiting on the licensing or whatever approval is needed.

If I had to guess it records dual REDCODE RAW and ProRes or straight ProRes scaled to likely 4K and 2K. No idea on the frame rates and supported resolutions, but how it works in DSMC2 should be a good hint.

 

[Curren Sheldon]

On the live stream it was mentioned it can do ProRes. The camera I tested didn't have it enabled, but based on what was said they are waiting on the licensing or whatever approval is needed.

If I had to guess it records dual REDCODE RAW and ProRes or straight ProRes scaled to likely 4K and 2K. No idea on the frame rates and supported resolutions, but how it works in DSMC2 should be a good hint.

Why do you think Red went with the HQ, MQ, and LQ? One of their biggest strengths was the vast array of raw compression ratios. I often shot 11:1 - 13:1 on my Epic-W at 6k and it was still incredibly lovely. But, to get those file sizes now, I would have to shoot 3k LQ on Raptor and that's obviously not useful because it would be an insane crop. It wouldn't be a big deal if HQ = 3:1, MQ = 7:1 or 8:1, and LQ = 11:1 or 12:1, but it seems LQ is closer to 7:1. This makes this camera difficult for those who want the beautiful R3Ds in 8k, 7k, or 6k, but can't fill up a TB every hour.

Thoughts?

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

My guess is that the ratio nomenclature was confusing for too many users. HQ, MQ and LQ are easily grasped. Perhaps there will eventually be an advanced menu for such granular control.

Cheers - #19

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

RED can't officially claim ProRes support until Apple signs off. Based on Jarred's comments in the live stream, there's every reason to believe that will happen in the next few weeks.

Cheers - #19

 

[Phil Holland]

Why do you think Red went with the HQ, MQ, and LQ? One of their biggest strengths was the vast array of raw compression ratios. I often shot 11:1 - 13:1 on my Epic-W at 6k and it was still incredibly lovely. But, to get those file sizes now, I would have to shoot 3k LQ on Raptor and that's obviously not useful because it would be an insane crop. It wouldn't be a big deal if HQ = 3:1, MQ = 7:1 or 8:1, and LQ = 11:1 or 12:1, but it seems LQ is closer to 7:1. This makes this camera difficult for those who want the beautiful R3Ds in 8k, 7k, or 6k, but can't fill up a TB every hour.

Thoughts?

That's moderately why I suggested more "strengths" of this new generation of REDCODE RAW. Technically there are ratios tied to HQ, MQ, and LQ and it does vary slightly based on the in frame content as always.

I understand the data footprint concerns, especially on longer and bigger shoots. My personal and professional requirements are likely not like others. I pretty much always roll at the lowest compression ratio due to the type of work I film. However, I'm certain RED understands some users will need more.

At the same time while we write this technology and storage is evolving. We're up to 18TB spinners now and soon higher capacity disks (though prices are high at the moment due to global weirdness). We're a little bit away from the 2TB and 4TB drive days On the flip side there's also good news coming to spinning disks that will give them about 2X the data rates, it's just not out yet. That will be critical to using 2 and 4 bay RAIDs realistically with higher data rate material. At the moment I'd recommend 6-8 if you can afford it for data rates such as this. That is if you haven't already moved to SSD or NVMe workflows.

RED's trajectory over the years has been utilizing Compressed RAW and generationally increasing data rates inside the camera, what the media can handle, and usually what the modern workflow landscape can maintain reasonably. That's a good trend to look at and react to.

Bare in mind years ago we were in the 28-42MB/s realm from the get go with notable leaps leading up to DSMC2 at 300MB/s. V-Raptor hitting 800MB/s is nearly a 3X increase and combined with the DCT REDCODE RAW it's producing pretty nice looking images.

From my previous experience with DCT, I'm betting they can squeeze a good quality 10:1 through perhaps 15:1 out of it. 22:1 I don't know if that's going to be a pretty looking image IMO. But hard to tell. I have no real idea how they are encoding it.

Just to add one more nugget here. Keep in mind RED's core target is cinema and production when it comes to visual quality. I think a lot of what's going on is moving towards raising the bar a bit when it comes to visual fidelity. Hell, I wouldn't shoot with these cameras if that wasn't the intention.