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RED Raptor 8k VV discussion

keith morton said:
Can I use my KipperTie Revolva RF/PL from the Komodo on Raptor?
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Yep. Should work fine.


Mark K. said:
The criticism (or let's say "skepticism" for now - until someone can show some proof of this RF mount handling some larger cine glass without trouble) is because the RF mount is designed for mirrorless stills cameras, and has a fraction of the usual amount of metal, we'd use to hold conventional cinema lenses in place. And where structural rigidity is concerned - there's no replacement for displacement.

Will this be an issue for anyone using something like Zeiss Supreme Primes or Sigma Cines with the camera? No. I'm sure it'll handle 1-2kg just fine. But 3.5kg Cooke S7s? Or zooms that can get up to 10kg+? How far are you willing to trust those little slivers of metal that hold an RF lens in place? Canon never designed it with those kinds of tolerances in mind (why would they), but in the motion picture world, we work with much heavier hardware, and it needs to be considered.
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I agree if you are literally just using the RF mount to support the adapter you really shouldn't be putting heavier glass on there no expect it to be rock solid.

This is why any good RF>PL adapter uses a support foot or collar.

You can see I used the Tokinas, larger than the more compact primes described. Using the support foot makes that mount rock solid for cinema application. You're relying on the surface area, lock, and fit of the RF mount plus steel to hold that lens. Remember the DSMC2 mounts are 4 bolts and a registration pin.


What I will say, is there's cheese on the front facing bottom of Raptor-V and I think you'll see some lens adapter/mounts use that for support rather than go into the baseplate like I am doing. I was just using what I had on hand.

I have no idea what the max weight supported on the Canon RF mount is, but it can certainly hold an 8-10lb lens on it's own. RED's iteration here has a locking collar as well as a pretty strong pin registration, it's a bit different from Komodo even.

My advice in general stands regarding much longer lenses with whatever PL mount you're using. Longer the lens, more taxing it is on the mount and stability. Don't think a 25X without lens support on the rod is a good idea. Physics are still activated in this version of reality :)
 
Phil Holland said:
That's moderately why I suggested more "strengths" of this new generation of REDCODE RAW. Technically there are ratios tied to HQ, MQ, and LQ and it does vary slightly based on the in frame content as always.

I understand the data footprint concerns, especially on longer and bigger shoots. My personal and professional requirements are likely not like others. I pretty much always roll at the lowest compression ratio due to the type of work I film. However, I'm certain RED understands some users will need more.

At the same time while we write this technology and storage is evolving. We're up to 18TB spinners now and soon higher capacity disks (though prices are high at the moment due to global weirdness). We're a little bit away from the 2TB and 4TB drive days :) On the flip side there's also good news coming to spinning disks that will give them about 2X the data rates, it's just not out yet. That will be critical to using 2 and 4 bay RAIDs realistically with higher data rate material. At the moment I'd recommend 6-8 if you can afford it for data rates such as this. That is if you haven't already moved to SSD or NVMe workflows.

RED's trajectory over the years has been utilizing Compressed RAW and generationally increasing data rates inside the camera, what the media can handle, and usually what the modern workflow landscape can maintain reasonably. That's a good trend to look at and react to.

Bare in mind years ago we were in the 28-42MB/s realm from the get go with notable leaps leading up to DSMC2 at 300MB/s. V-Raptor hitting 800MB/s is nearly a 3X increase and combined with the DCT REDCODE RAW it's producing pretty nice looking images.

From my previous experience with DCT, I'm betting they can squeeze a good quality 10:1 through perhaps 15:1 out of it. 22:1 I don't know if that's going to be a pretty looking image IMO. But hard to tell. I have no real idea how they are encoding it.

Just to add one more nugget here. Keep in mind RED's core target is cinema and production when it comes to visual quality. I think a lot of what's going on is moving towards raising the bar a bit when it comes to visual fidelity. Hell, I wouldn't shoot with these cameras if that wasn't the intention.
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Yep all of that makes sense. Crazy we are up to 18TB drives and looking forward to making a 6-bay 18TB RAID once a current project wraps up.

And agree that a 10:1 - 15:1 version of the new REDCODE RAW would be amazing. I think you're right, no need to go higher, but a 12:1 o 13:1 would be amazing. Who do we need to speak to about that? I think you know some folks. It's probably the one thing that would push me into buying into both Raptor and Komodo.
 
Björn Benckert said:
I want to buy this Raptor thing. But then also 7 days from now DJI will release that chicken head camera which I guess also will be 8k FF which I'm sure will be a complete game changer. Built in gimbal, 3D focus etc. And I dont want to get rid of my Monstro or Komodo. It worries me that I am even thinking of hoarding them all. What have I become, some sort of crazy camera collector geek. I did not see it coming. lol.
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I don't think the upcoming dji camera will win any awards for its esthetics. But its sure a new concept. Kind of like when sony separated the sensor block from the rest of the camera (the ones used for Avatar 2). That was pretty darn good idea. Interesting times to live.
 
Phil makes a good point about proper lens support for big glass. Even a robust PL mount has limits.

Perhaps the key message here is to always properly support longer lenses, whatever the mount. With an RF/Adapter setup, there's a bit less margin for error. 19mm Titanium FTW!

Cheers - #19
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
Perhaps the key message here is to always properly support longer lenses, whatever the mount. With an RF/Adapter setup, there's a bit less margin for error. 19mm Titanium FTW!
Click to expand...

I think the key message is still that manufacturers shouldn’t put flimsy stills photography mounts on $25k cameras (at least not without having a proper PL mount option that can cover it - like Sony’s Venice done).

Supporting long lenses is a given - it’s worrying about literally bending the lens mount while trying to get such supports in place, that worries me. A proper PL mount doesn’t have that same level of concern.
 
Well this is interesting. I think I've finally pieced together how the "Production Shell" accessories will sit on the Raptor. I've thrown together a quick little mashup in Photoshop (for those, like me, who have similarly been struggling to piece things together in their heads):

tCmnaHJ.jpg


I was a bit annoyed at first (that the camera didn't simply have these basic functionalities built in), but the more I ponder it, the more I think it's actually a really interesting take on the modularity that has defined DSMC2.

Instead of DSMC2's build-a-cam approach (and all the complexity that it creates), this keeps all of the essentials self-contained (and familiar to everyone who encounters the camera). And then adds a (hopefully) really tidy "Production Shell" to provide the accessory power outputs, and control I/O that conventional productions will need.

And although I'd still prefer a tidier (and lighter) version of the camera, that simply had these three components built-in from the start. If this is essentially what the "production" version of the camera can be - then it suddenly grew much more appealing to me.

From the look of the render of the gold-mount plate, it would appear we'll end up with 2x DTAP outputs, and the 2x Lemo outputs on the top plate. And four outputs is going to be enough to cover the majority of rigging situations without having to add further accessory gack. This is really pretty significant.

It also looks like the "shell" battery plates, will bring the battery-mounting out far enough from the back of the camera, that we can (hopefully) use any existing V-mount or Gold-mount batteries (which will be a relief).
 
Mark K. said:
Well this is interesting.
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That's useful for visualization there Mark. I'm actually pretty curious how and where the dual XLR thingy will go on my builds. But I agree with what you've discovered. On the physical camera itself there are no D-Taps, which is a likely correct choice considering all things. But those V-Mount and Gold-Mount plates will allow for extra power delivery outside of what the battery itself may have ports to do. Power delivery to lens motors and such through that top plate are a given.

I think V-Raptor is still "technically" modular, but it's a different approach this time around because it looks like they have designed these accessories from the get go, and likely most available *hopefully* soon. The Ranger/XL likely will have a lot of that built in.

I've said it many times before in regards to DSMC and DSMC2. You can make a small camera bigger, but it's nearly impossible to make a large camera smaller (and have it still function).

Raptor itself isn't much larger than Komodo physically. Clearly some of those.... dangerous world I'm floating in, gonna make a new term.... fight it.... fight it... Expansion Plates (fighting the urge to use module there) make the camera taller. Looks like only an inch or so.

The only thing I got to see before that live stream was the new RED/SmallHD DSCM3 7.0" screen and the top handle. New touch screen had 4X shortcut keys monitor left and had cheese and points for a lens hood or mounting. I don't think many have picked up on it, but it's using a 15mm rod clamp now with a rather clever USB-C port. We've seen some people snap the tilt/twist DSMC2 and DSMC displays and there's that ribbon cable in there. This clearly doesn't use that. It's still a twist/tilt, but no cable interfacing there. It's not fully cableless technically, but what this does allow you to do is toss a 15mm shorty on there and you should be able to mount the monitor to it. i.e. Shoulder rigs, up high, side mount, gimbal, etc. I do think this is clever. Don't know what the EVF will bring, but interface-wise I wouldn't be upset with similar design concepts.

On the new monitor, that mounting post is "tall" to clear a top handle and/or the top plate. That GDU Mount though I used on the test shoot allowed for my Cine 7 to pretty much lay flat when not in use.

What I don't know is how much of the RED Menu versus SmallHD menu is in this display. That's a tricky balance I imagine. I need those shortcut keys for RED in camera things personally. Touch has got to be a pain to design for with all the possibilities here. I do wonder if we can double magnify, but my first "yay" thought was we finally have waveforms potentially on the top LCD. And even more interestingly if all the smallHD stuff is in there, we can roll our own anamorphic stuff potentially. Don't know how all that would work with the RED GUI.

On the rear of the camera there's a USB-C port that has a locking thread, also a good move.

I've only seen literally one complaint online regarding lack of HDMI. I haven't used HDMI for a long, long time on a cinema cam. I think that rings true for most working with cameras of this level.


One thing I'll say regarding the monitor that I did some homework on this weekend.

DSMC2 7.0" LCD Touch = 5.5W Power Consumption
DSMC2 7.0" Ultra-Brite = 6.1W Power Consumption (at full 2200 nits)
DSMC2 EVF = 2.5W
DSMC3 7.0" LCD Touch = 18.3W (1300 nits)

With that a couple thoughts on my mind. First, it's clearly going to draw more power. I own and use the Cine 7 pretty often and I keep my brightness dimmed way down for most shooting situations, curious if that has a noticeable power impact. There's a visible difference in improved image quality versus the DSMC2 IMO, which is good.

The other thing this "inspires" is potential for the Top LCD to be able to do proper HDR Monitoring...... I'm assuming this is the same approximate panel that can handle 10-bit. That is interesting and useful. I wonder if the EVF is capable in that capacity. The best EVF I've currently used is the Panavision EVF for the DXL. This clearly won't be the same size as that, but I'm wondering just what it can do.
 
Mark K. said:
I think the key message is still that manufacturers shouldn’t put flimsy stills photography mounts on $25k cameras (snip)
Click to expand...

Different shooters have different needs. For a lot of people, the upcoming XL/Ranger version with swappable mounts is the droid they're looking for. For others, the fixed RF mount will work a treat - particularly if they want to use an adapter to host their ND solution.

FWIW, in the livestream, Jarred claimed that RED's new locking RF mount for Raptor is very sturdy. Just because RF was designed for stills applications, doesn't mean you can't use better materials and add strength while still adhering to the spec. Perhaps we should reserve judgement until proper independent stress tests can be done.

Cheers - #19
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
Different shooters have different needs. For a lot of people, the upcoming XL/Ranger version with swappable mounts is the droid they're looking for. For others, the fixed RF mount will work a treat - particularly if they want to use an adapter to host their ND solution.

FWIW, in the livestream, Jarred claimed that RED's new locking RF mount for Raptor is very sturdy. Just because RF was designed for stills applications, doesn't mean you can't use better materials and add strength while still adhering to the spec. Perhaps we should reserve judgement until proper independent stress tests can be done.

Cheers - #19
Click to expand...

For what I do the RF mount is an absolute game changer. The possibility for swappable ND or eND's is a game changer for me. With the likes of the Revolva RF to PL mount this is a complete non issue.

I'll be probably staying in Monstro land for a couple of years, as much as I would like to jump immediately to Raptor due to financial reasons, but for Motorsports and Documentary , for Independent Cinema and lower crews commercials, the new Body features are almost a revolution and a big improvement and Wellcome workflow.
 
Regarding the lens mount, I fielded this question from a few people who either ordered or had criticism regarding the RF mount.

I'll say my simple response:

"What if I told you can bolt on your PL Mount to secure it?"

DSMC2 features 4X bolts and one registration pin to secure the "interchangeable lens mount".

Raptor features a locking RF mount with registration pin to mount to and there are many ways to bolt on the support.

I won't be the one to break a camera, but I'm betting RF Mount + 2-4X bolts on the front or via baseplate mounting foot is close to if not as strong. Perhaps an X pattern mounting solution similar to what Vocas has done for the very concerned.

The RF Mount on Raptor seems to be even strong than Komodo for that matter.

Not sure what the fuss is about here honestly. I mostly use PL on Komodo, same lenses I use on Monstro, and this hasn't even been that big of a deal. You just want to secure the mount when interfacing with the lens via lens gears or motors to ensure the lens doesn't wobble or shift when operating.

I also didn't exactly use the smallest lenses on my test shoot, but I supported the mount like a good little lad.
 
Can someone answer this question... is the Raptor V THE flagship RED camera? Meaning is it meant to be their highest end RED option or do we think there may be an even higher spec DSMC3 on the horizon? 12K at 40 FPS... Is that where RED is headed? Or are we looking at latest and greatest and all other DSMC3 cams will be siblings to the Helium or Gemini or Dragon sensors?
 
James Winegar said:
Can someone answer this question... is the Raptor V THE flagship RED camera? Meaning is it meant to be their highest end RED option or do we think there may be an even higher spec DSMC3 on the horizon? 12K at 40 FPS... Is that where RED is headed? Or are we looking at latest and greatest and all other DSMC3 cams will be siblings to the Helium or Gemini or Dragon sensors?
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Only thing stated on the live stream was Raptor 8K VV is the flagship of this generation of DSMC3, but even that lineup moniker seemed to have some discussion internally from what Jarred was saying. Don't have any clue on what that actually means. Seems to be a lot of discussion at RED regarding where Komodo lands in all of this as it's being wrangled a bit into DSMC3 somewhat. From my perspective we are looking at the 4th generation of RED cameras either way.

Considering how secretive things are lately, all manufacturers are dancing this way currently, I don't know if we'd ever get more information.

What we do know:

- V-Raptor 8K VV is the flagship "sensor"
- Some sort of production minded body is coming in the form of a Ranger or XL

Some specifications were mentioned regarding the Ranger/XL. Bigger body, likely more I/O, interchangeable mounts, internal ND likely within body based on what was said. Not much else mentioned. This body type seems to be the DSMC3 as opposed to Ranger/XL style if we are thinking that way.

All speculation really beyond that.
 
Imagine the gemini sensor getting new life in a Komodo body... seems like a win for everyone who isn't as thrilled about Komodo's low-light performance or low frame rates would get to eat their cake with 5K. Also would help keep DSMC2 relevant like they did in the past with the Dragon sensor making it into new bodies.
 
It is confusing trying to interpret "flagship." Knowing this is an upgrade to Monstro makes me assume this is the highest spec highest end "DSMC3" camera RED is making. I'm having a hard time buying that this is THE top of RED's new line up at its price point for storm trooper at $25K and lets assume the black models are cheaper... Watching the livestream I'm also confused about what the DSMC3 line really is... It almost felt like RAPTOR works along with KOMODO but as its own body and not necessarily "DSMC3." So I am left wondering is this the new DSMC3 body with a "monstro" sensor that will be the same body with a new "helium" or "gemini" sensor or will those bodies also be somewhat different... In other words is RED breaking the "modularity" build of their DSMC1 and DSMC2 bodies... So many questions. Though I put in an order for Raptor i'm left wondering if I should be waiting for the Super35 8K version of this camera I'm sure is yet to come.
 
And another thing... 12K sensors... Are we too early? Seems like a $55K monstro price tag on a 12K sensor makes sense... I'm still just totally confused with this price point for a "monstro" equivalent upgrade.
 
I feel fairly certain that the V-Raptor architecture represents the new benchmark for speed, data throughput etc. I don't think the XL will exceed the Raptor like say "150 FPS in 8K" Red is pushing the CFExpress cards to their current limit. They have worked with Angelbird to create the first card available to handle Raptor. Im sure in a couple years speeds will rise again but right now this is as far as it goes.
 
Is there any word yet on boot time for the camera yet? How long it takes from turning on the power, to being able to record?

Would be good to know what the proposed Prores specs are too - is it going to remain only 2k for the 12-bit 4:4:4 codecs, or will we finally get 12-bit Prores4444 in 4k?

The 8k sensor would seem like the perfect option for that, you could get a genuine 4:4:4 4k debayer - which would be brilliant, and no more complaints about workflow from crowds who don't like to deal with raw files.
 
Phil Holland said:
Regarding the lens mount, I fielded this question from a few people who either ordered or had criticism regarding the RF mount.

I'll say my simple response:

"What if I told you can bolt on your PL Mount to secure it?"

DSMC2 features 4X bolts and one registration pin to secure the "interchangeable lens mount".

Raptor features a locking RF mount with registration pin to mount to and there are many ways to bolt on the support.

I won't be the one to break a camera, but I'm betting RF Mount + 2-4X bolts on the front or via baseplate mounting foot is close to if not as strong. Perhaps an X pattern mounting solution similar to what Vocas has done for the very concerned.

The RF Mount on Raptor seems to be even strong than Komodo for that matter.

Not sure what the fuss is about here honestly. I mostly use PL on Komodo, same lenses I use on Monstro, and this hasn't even been that big of a deal. You just want to secure the mount when interfacing with the lens via lens gears or motors to ensure the lens doesn't wobble or shift when operating.

I also didn't exactly use the smallest lenses on my test shoot, but I supported the mount like a good little lad.
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I totally agree like the KipperTie chinstrap for Komodo, would be nice to see a chin/forehead fortified RF/PL adapter. Of course lens feet and supports with proper rigging never hurt either.
 
I think Raptor looks great in many ways and could well be my next camera. I'm a little unsure about the idea of a "dual format" sensor though. It's great to have the option of full frame and 8k or Super 35 6k - one for high resolution, other for S35 lenses, more reach and higher frame rates - that would be a big draw to me. But all you actually have is a full frame 8k sensor and you're just cropping it as you always have done with any other RED or other cameras in centre crop mode. Am I missing something? When I read "dual format" I just thought it would be something revolutionary like a dual base ISO or dual gain output rather than just standard sensor cropping on a standard sensor.
 
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