RED Komodo-X

[andrewhake]

I think the RED Hydrogen side-project would have led to products that could have existed in the action and mirrorless camera realm, pity the phone side of it led to its demise.

It's interesting to imagine what RED could do if they did want to make an action cam, even smaller than their Komodo crash/utility camera. Funny to also then imagine how, when people inevitably ask for a more fully featured version of the same thing, RED would have to make what adds up to a mirrorless camera, being the natural step back up from the action camera form.

Just can't see RED broadening out like that, if they're to remain a digital cinema camera company, and not get massacred competing with much bigger companies that have spent decades developing and refining their stills cameras to make them what they are today.

I do actually think RED could make a cinema-quality action-sized cam that could fit into their DSMC lineup, but it wouldn't be as fully featured as even the OG Komodo, while it would probably be at least as expensive as one. Which means, on the downside, it wouldn't appeal like the OG Komodo did to as wide of a potential user-base. While on the upside, it wouldn't actually be directly competing with the cheaper more established action cams.

Not being a camera or sensor designer, I don't know how feasible it would be in reality, but it's not hard to think of ways space saving and size reduction might be achieved, while maintaining the necessary level of image quality. It wouldn't be like any camera RED have made before though.

yeah people would be like why can’t this action cam form factor be my A cam and why doesn’t it have internal NDs!?

 

[Phil Holland]

yeah people would be like why can’t this action cam form factor be my A cam and why doesn’t it have internal NDs!?

Yep. I personally don't think RED is going to get into the pure action camera realm, literally Komodo was designed to avoid those systems and provide the connectivity low through high end professional shoots can find useful.

Also, I don't think RED would make a smaller than S35 sensor for that matter, though I'm certainly an advocate if you want to shoot a project with a S16 extraction. I just don't see them designing around that format size purely or MFT. Fixed lens and 1" sensors aren't going to be a thing RED is going to make anytime soon. That's a box most don't want to be trapped in for professional work.

I'm actually really into the form factor of the general current DSMC3 bodies with only a few quibbles. They are light enough to travel with and hefty enough to operate smoothly on sticks or sliders without too much of a headache. Sort of a weird balancing act there between lightweight and too lightweight for a lot of applications.

I could see RED making a more compact camera in length at some time, but that is going to take more thinking than something that resembles current mirrorless designs.

 

[Micah A Brown]

The X improved on the shadows, hats off. That improves on the global shitter advantage they have.

But i have a hard time imagining how Sony FX3 mk2 and Canon C70 mk2 are going to f*ck up. they already beat the KOG on every level except resolution and GS, but at near half the price of a kitted up KOG.

Now enter the KX, and i have no idea how the C70 and FX6/3 successors can't beat it other than Global shutter. They already have the DR, frame rates, sensor size, flippy screens on board, or internal ND, audio, you name it, and at half the price. how long can the red raw brand last?

When I started my own production company in 2017 I agonized over purchasing either the 5D mark IV or the A7sii at the time. At the end of the day, they were both extremely capable cameras but what tore it for me honestly was the fact that I felt like the Sony would break if I dropped it.Whereas the 5DMKIV felt like it could survive a war. RED was entirely cost prohibitive for me at the time In the end it was a fit and feel thing and I went with the 5D which I only just recently replaced with the R6 Mark II and the KX. We

Since 2021 I have been looking to upgrade, again agonizing over the decision. The C70 checked so many boxes even down to being able to use all the media I already owned and get compressed raw video that was easy on my system to edit. the downside was, the ergonomics are just not right.

The FX6 on the other hand is the most comfortable camera I have ever held and the variable ND is really nice in run and gun, but the menu system is a nightmare and again, good ol' Sony, it just felt too cheap.

The KOG was nice but the frame rate being cripple hammered at 48 FPS was a bit of a jerk move and CFast had me totally disinterested as I like having tools that can do more than one job. I was dying over this decision.

Then I recently worked as a DP for a well established production company in my area. The owner/director who is usually running a commercial crew of 5-7 just needed me to handle some simple run and gun pick-ups with him for a corporate piece using his Raven. Working with someone who has 25+ years of experience over you is humbling. It was like an 8 hour mastermind, at one point during some downtime the camera upgrade conversation came up and I asked him did he transition away from shooting C300 because he wanted to or because clients were asking? He put it to me like this, "I transitioned to RED because of the client demand. I am in the RED ecosystem, the DP who referred you to me is in the RED ecosystem for the same reason. You're way more marketable in this industry and way more useful for me on subsequent projects if your in the RED ecosystem."

That pretty much made the decision for me. That and I knew I could solve the ergonomics issue on KOG with handles and grips and I didn't have a lot of client demand for high FPS and I was willing to just accept the CFast conundrum.

I made the purchase about an hour before Jared dropped the first teaser image. I called BH Soo fast and was like cancel it! I have to know what they are releasing before I spend all this money! They caught it with literal minutes to spare, part of my order had shipped already and the KOG would have been nonreturnable. I delayed gratification one more week and couldn't be happier.

I was neurotically refreshing the website while watching Scott's Livestream. When the KX dropped, I couldn't have put in my credit card any faster and ended up with Trooper #61!

KX fixed everything on my gripe list at a price I could handle and finally get my company into the RED ecosystem. I used it for the first client job this last Friday, for a company I had filmed for a week prior and the fidelity alone was worth it's weight.

To sum it up, RED will continue to exist the same way Apple thrives. Singlehandedly disrupt the industry, then build a rabid fan base that will buy you're products not because of their technical specs, or UI necessarily but for the ecosystem, end user experience and status the brand association creates.

 

[andrewhake]

Yep. I personally don't think RED is going to get into the pure action camera realm, literally Komodo was designed to avoid those systems and provide the connectivity low through high end professional shoots can find useful.

Also, I don't think RED would make a smaller than S35 sensor for that matter, though I'm certainly an advocate if you want to shoot a project with a S16 extraction. I just don't see them designing around that format size purely or MFT. Fixed lens and 1" sensors aren't going to be a thing RED is going to make anytime soon. That's a box most don't want to be trapped in for professional work.

I'm actually really into the form factor of the general current DSMC3 bodies with only a few quibbles. They are light enough to travel with and hefty enough to operate smoothly on sticks or sliders without too much of a headache. Sort of a weird balancing act there between lightweight and too lightweight for a lot of applications.

I could see RED making a more compact camera in length at some time, but that is going to take more thinking than something that resembles current mirrorless designs.

I kind of think at some point there is just a limit to how small a lens and sensor can be that can still create a cinematic image. Personally I value an image and art created by a real person making real decisions with real tools.

And I am glad Red keeps going with that approach. My use case is completely abnormal, I am a VFX artist and fully focus on that professionally and am lucky enough to be able to treat weird specific film work as a hobby and occasional side gig just because I love the process. I have mainly been focused on how to better capture professional driving (both picture and sound) and other weird use cases where POV is really interesting if it can be done well. Trying to capture the genuine experience and joy of motorsport or other dangerous things that are hard to fake. my other main environment is capturing things at night so naturally I own a Gemini and Komodo.

All that nonsense aside, I think Komodo X is definitely on my list of tools to buy next. I love that it has put Komodo back in its correct place and maybe Red will be able to treat it as more of an experiment again rather than the most popular camera it has ever made. Just like it was the first Red with global shutter. Just like we got the monochrome full spectrum version (Komodo is a much more logical form factor than all the previous Monochrome brains), remove all the general industry QOL stuff and see what kind of weird stuff can be accomplished. Little 4x4x4 boxes that don’t conform to industry standards. I would love to see a Komodo that is made entirely for capturing low light and seeing in the dark. That is probably more realistic than one I can strap to my forehead haha. I have microphones from DPA that are made specifically for capturing extremely high SPL and are basically useless for normal volume recording.

I love that companies are still willing to do that sort of thing even though there isn’t a major market for it. 32bit audio recording was completely scoffed at just like compressed raw, because they can’t comprehend a use case beyond their own.

 

[andrewhake]

Correct, it is a Pity RED abandoned Jims idea which was an INCREDIBLE phone, incredible piece of equipment, incredible design, and amazing screen- Red abandoned Jims idea because some Youtubers gave it bad reviews, and these arent even big youtubers they were guys I had never heard of before or since. It really is a massive shame. No phone comes close, or probably will ever.

MASSIVE SHAME.

Where is HYDROGEN 2.

Abandoning Hydrogen, Scarlett 2/3rd 3k, that giant giga-format sensor that was teased so many years ago, and countless other examples of saying no, is why a company like Red still exists. Making every possible product you can dream up is how you end up being Samsung making smart refrigerators with a Netflix app. Not every good idea stays good over it’s development period, and not every good idea makes a good product.

Phones now are infinitely more powerful than Hydrogen was likely ever going to be. 3D is essentially abandoned again and will be until AR/VR becomes more prevalent, and instead now we have phones that have better displays than the highest end reference displays of the past and can watch content made by these incredible cinema cameras at a level most people never thought would be possible. I will take a 1000nit sustained 1600nit peak brightness phone OLED display over a lenticular 3D one every day of the week. Had Red been focused purely on reference level display quality in a phone maybe it would still be an idea that stuck around. If you really look at it objectively now, was it really any of those things you listed?

Imagine if we had full rec2020 microLED or microOLED HDR reference level on camera monitors right now, instead of the dogshit edge lit LCD panels that are way too expensive and have terrible black levels and color accuracy because people want to be able to look at them at high noon without a sunshade.

 

[James Sielaff]

When I started my own production company in 2017 I agonized over purchasing either the 5D mark IV or the A7sii at the time. At the end of the day, they were both extremely capable cameras but what tore it for me honestly was the fact that I felt like the Sony would break if I dropped it.Whereas the 5DMKIV felt like it could survive a war. RED was entirely cost prohibitive for me at the time In the end it was a fit and feel thing and I went with the 5D which I only just recently replaced with the R6 Mark II and the KX. We

Since 2021 I have been looking to upgrade, again agonizing over the decision. The C70 checked so many boxes even down to being able to use all the media I already owned and get compressed raw video that was easy on my system to edit. the downside was, the ergonomics are just not right.

The FX6 on the other hand is the most comfortable camera I have ever held and the variable ND is really nice in run and gun, but the menu system is a nightmare and again, good ol' Sony, it just felt too cheap.

The KOG was nice but the frame rate being cripple hammered at 48 FPS was a bit of a jerk move and CFast had me totally disinterested as I like having tools that can do more than one job. I was dying over this decision.

Then I recently worked as a DP for a well established production company in my area. The owner/director who is usually running a commercial crew of 5-7 just needed me to handle some simple run and gun pick-ups with him for a corporate piece using his Raven. Working with someone who has 25+ years of experience over you is humbling. It was like an 8 hour mastermind, at one point during some downtime the camera upgrade conversation came up and I asked him did he transition away from shooting C300 because he wanted to or because clients were asking? He put it to me like this, "I transitioned to RED because of the client demand. I am in the RED ecosystem, the DP who referred you to me is in the RED ecosystem for the same reason. You're way more marketable in this industry and way more useful for me on subsequent projects if your in the RED ecosystem."

That pretty much made the decision for me. That and I knew I could solve the ergonomics issue on KOG with handles and grips and I didn't have a lot of client demand for high FPS and I was willing to just accept the CFast conundrum.

I made the purchase about an hour before Jared dropped the first teaser image. I called BH Soo fast and was like cancel it! I have to know what they are releasing before I spend all this money! They caught it with literal minutes to spare, part of my order had shipped already and the KOG would have been nonreturnable. I delayed gratification one more week and couldn't be happier.

I was neurotically refreshing the website while watching Scott's Livestream. When the KX dropped, I couldn't have put in my credit card any faster and ended up with Trooper #61!

KX fixed everything on my gripe list at a price I could handle and finally get my company into the RED ecosystem. I used it for the first client job this last Friday, for a company I had filmed for a week prior and the fidelity alone was worth it's weight.

To sum it up, RED will continue to exist the same way Apple thrives. Singlehandedly disrupt the industry, then build a rabid fan base that will buy you're products not because of their technical specs, or UI necessarily but for the ecosystem, end user experience and status the brand association creates.

Always great when things work out like that, great example of knowing what you need, and being in the right place at the right time

 

[Micah A Brown]

Always great when things work out like that, great example of knowing what you need, and being in the right place at the right time

This is the mentality we need to foster for those coming up after us. It's easy to get a degree from YouTube University in camera spec sheets it's an entirely different thing to understand that they are all just tools in the toolbox and it's more about knowing your client and letting that dictate your trajectory. One of the other reasons I started with what I did was because I initially only wanted to do photography but the client demand was overwhelming for video and I had a family to provide for so if they want video, then video is is!

 

[Jason L]

A lot of awesome stuff. Is there any chance there are some R3D files out there to dig through. Thanks!

 

[Brian Timmons]

Jarred's update on KX ST and Black.
It sounds like the Black version is aiming for shipping "last week of June."

https://www.instagram.com/p/CszU-KVyUgt/

Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA

 

[Vince Robitaille]

I find it odd there are no Komodo vs Komodo X videos... yet multiple venues on YouTube who have both cameras.

One needs to see how much better the image is, in daylight, in lit scene, in normal light, in night time.

Many of the changes to the body are negligible.

If you think the changes to the body are negligible, don't hold your breathe regarding the image...

 

[andrewhake]

The entire point of the Komodo-X is body changes for more capable A cam rigs, and higher frame rates, no reason to think that there will be any major improvements in image quality over Komodo. Which is already excellent anyway.

In the same way the Raptor-XL compares with the Raptor. But just X not XL.

 

[Phil Holland]

no one

Some quick points in a random order.

First. Jarred has confirmed multiple times that Komodo-X is a new sensor. And it's rather evident in about 30 seconds in shooting with KX to know that for yourself. Even further once you take images into post. It's a difference in Dynamic Range. It's a difference in Texture. It's a difference in Color. And I haven't looked real hard yet, but there's also some other IQ improvements I have a hunch on, could be CSF or Low Pass related. By my metric, it's a great improvement. I'll be able to provide some numbers on that shortly outside of POV.

Second stuff. The Camera. The body has gained .6lbs, yes. And is a bit longer. That's all. Here's the fast scrub. The added functionality of power that can actually be fed to the new out and in existence DSMC3, take more "production friendly" batteries, maintains Global Shutter, higher frame rates, better internal flocking in the sensor chamber, better image quality, vastly better audio, and better I/O layout are the things you will be investing in. Some of my original Komodo 6K S35 accessories added up and there's a lot currently going on in the Komodo-X from the get go that solves a few of those needs. I'll say for me personally, also sharing accessories with my V-Raptor bodies is a bonus as Komodo 6K is a bit of an odd duck out of the liter when it comes to a few things. I'll also add, it's amazing this thing doesn't drain a lot of power. That was one thing Komodo 6K S35 did great, nice to see Komodo-X still maintaining that trend.

I haven't seen anybody complain about the body except for a few here looking for RED to make a more Action Camera oriented body, which is not this camera and likely not even a market they would get into as both Komodos bodies slide into that world a bit, but certainly not as svelte as a GoPro or whatever. But significantly higher image quality comparatively.

There's actually more going on here than meets the eye as well. I think Komodo-X has some newer hardware than Raptor bodies in a few directions for the better, but it's very hard for me to test that without destroying cameras. I personally haven't blown an SDI port on any camera the last decade from anybody for that matter, but I'm wondering if there was an improvement in some things under the hood.

I'm certain there is a lot to dig into. Much like Komodo 6K S35 when it came out, the biggest thing outside of anything was such a small camera has a Global Shutter with this level of image quality. Similarly Komodo-X built on that, which is one of my "no brainer" moments to put my cash down. Currently they are the only GS sensors I own to shoot professional work with. That comes in handy for things I specifically shoot.

 

[rand thompson]

RED Komodo-X vs Komodo - High ISO Footage Comparison


by Peter Choi

 

[Patrick Tresch]

And here my DR test.

https://vimeo.com/manage/videos/831326895

sorry for the Vimeo compression...

 

[andrewhake]

The body gained size (which people are complaining about) moved some things around (buttons and location of I/O), added ability for a monitor, a usbc, I call that kind of negligable.

Better audio (but as most people say they wouldnt use camera audio anyway on a real prodcution).

These things are great, and I am thinking Id like a Komodo X, but what MATTERS IN THE END is the IMAGE. So yeah, kind of important.
Especially when there are now multiple videos talking about how much better the image is from this, all from people who have a komodo, yet there are no side by sides.
There are side by sides of komodo and raptor, komodo and epic-w, komodo and VV raptor. But so far noone has literally set the same settings with KOG and KX and shown the difference in image. It is okay I know there will be videos within a week showing this, but I am kind of amazed this was not the FIRST THING people did. Again, since to many komodo owners picked up a KX.

And to prematurely answer the person saying its how raptor compares to raptor xl or whatever they are saying... I think Komodo X reminds me of when Mysterium became Mysterium X.
Only a much higher price tag this time around.

Mysterium X was "a little better' sensor also. But in actuality, it was a MUCH BETTER SENSOR.

However no one has confirmed whether KOG and KX have a different sensor, and regardless it doesnt matter since its in the boards which would tell what the image quality can be between the two cameras.

And by the way I have seen more complaints about the body changes than compliments. Or possibly, 50/50.

I haven't seen a single complaint about any of the things you are saying and most of the things you are saying are just incorrect. And these cameras have already been compared in one of the first videos published about the Komodo-X by CVP. They did exactly what you asked. And guess what, Slightly improved useable dynamic range compared to Komodo. So I don't think you are putting much effort into getting any information. There is plenty of footage out there, and more and more with cameras these days, the image they create is more a limitation of the operator than the camera itself, so I'm not sure what you expect to see. Every red camera since the Red One have can make amazing images. What are your concerns about image quality.

It has been confirmed by Jarred many times that yes it is a different sensor.

It really isn't any bigger than a Komodo in any meaningful way. And is actually quite a bit smaller if you run a V-lock setup on both. It isn't as wide because of the different antenna placement, not that size or weight is an issue on either of these cameras.

 

[andrewhake]

I haven't seen anybody complain about the body except for a few here looking for RED to make a more Action Camera oriented body, which is not this camera and likely not even a market they would get into as both Komodos bodies slide into that world a bit, but certainly not as svelte as a GoPro or whatever. But significantly higher image quality comparatively.

To be fair that wasn't even really a complaint. More of a "I wish Red could ALSO do a camera like this" sort of thing. I am planning to get a Komodo-X to go alongside my Gemini and Komodo and expect it to be my most commonly used camera. And the Gemini and Komodo will slot in perfectly where they are better (low light and even smaller rigging situations).

 

[rand thompson]

RED TECH LIVE | KOMODO-X

By RED Digital Cinema

Join RED for a RED TECH Live with Jarred, Cleigh, and the RED team will formally introduce KOMODO-X, review the product development, discuss new sensor technology, and accessories, and finish with a live Q&A. Tune in May 31, 2023 at 12 pm PT / 3 pm ET / 8 pm GMT.​

 

[Vince Robitaille]

RED Komodo-X vs Komodo - High ISO Footage Comparison


by Peter Choi

Well, I was wrong and am definitely impressed.

 

[Jon Pais]

Responding in advance since I'm at work, the complaints I see about the body are on youtube and on Newsshooter comments. It is very much 50/50.

Personally, Id like to buy the Komodo X as I said... but I would like more info too. I wish Red was totally transparent about it all, meaning... what exactly is going on with the sensor/boards etc.

Again If I had 4 thousand bucks I maybe wouldve already bought it, sold the Komodo. But also as another person said on Youtube, I do have some sentimentality with the OG Komodo.

What info exactly would you like to know about the sensor? I'm sure they'd be willing to answer your questions during the RED TECH LIVE event.

 

[andrewhake]

Any good demonstrations yet of using Komodo-X with Red Control App over Wi-Fi or direct USB-C connection? Really interested to see how this performs because I have found myself using it all the damn time on my Komodo. Would be amazing to be in a world where we can just connect a phone and get full HDR monitoring direct to a phone over USB-C or even over Wi-fi.
I saw a few showing yep it works but not getting into too much of the detail.