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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED Helium 8K DxOMark Sensor Score: 108 — A new all-time-high score!

Digital Darkroom

Digital Darkroom

Milano Questa said:
Image quality for stills.
Colors, sharper, better 'look'. My a7rii files are much more detailed and contrasty.
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Are you comparing apples to apples in terms of RAW vs RGB? The RGB image from Helium you initially see in RCX-Pro is typically based on the in camera metadata settings, Dragon targeted gamma and likely presented in rec709 color. The Sony a7r2 makes nice pictures, full stop. That said, with a low compression ratio (3:1 - 6:1) and proper RAW development techniques, the stills from 8K RED Helium should fare quite well. The preference for the Sony stills may be more about the DSP processing done to optimize the base RGB representation than what's actually in the data sets of each image.

Cheers - #19
 
Awesome news, though not a huge surprise. :)

Congratulations RED, you're the best and we knew it, but now there is another scientific proof.
 
Milano Questa said:
Image quality for stills.

Colors, sharper, better 'look'. My a7rii files are much more detailed and contrasty.
Click to expand...

Well cinema cameras are not designed primarily for stills but prioritize motion imaging aesthetic and require grading and A7R2 doesn't use OLPF and has 80MB raw stills.

Contrast is largely affected by the properties of image development process so unless you shot stills in S-Log2 on A7R2 and developed with same process as Red's log that distinction factor is quite a stretch.
 
There you go!!!!

Congrats RED team!

G
 
Hrvoje Simic said:
Well cinema cameras are not designed primarily for stills but prioritize motion imaging aesthetic and require grading and A7R2 doesn't use OLPF and has 80MB raw stills.

Contrast is largely affected by the properties of image development process so unless you shot stills in S-Log2 on A7R2 and developed with same process as Red's log that distinction factor is quite a stretch.
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I woud posit that one of the reasons the A7xx series cameras have a rep for rolling shutter issues is the lack of a more aggressive OLPF to smooth transitions. For stills, aliasing is typically a non issue, and if there is a little - that nice 80MB 16bit file should hold up well to a bit of finessing in the digital darkroom, likely at your fingertips... Just one key example of why Hrvoje is spot on that design priority matters in any imaging system. Even with all the amazing advances - particularly in DR - there are still some tradeoffs at play. REDs intent to create the ultimate crossover camera; they even named it DSMC (Digital Stills Motion Camera, now in version 2) has my full support - versatility counts in my world and motion is my calling card so RED is an easy choice.

Keep in mind there is a lot of DSP (Digital Signal Processing) going on inside the Sony A7xx series cameras that reinforces blacks, contours default saturation representation, etc. If you are looking for a quick way to "punch up" your R3Ds there are LUT collections that should serve you well. My advice for quick turnarounds is to neutralize the blacks on the desktop scope, make sure your key elements read well or beef up your mid-tones - if that's not appropriate to content, just push ISO and crush the toe a little. Once you've "balanced" the image, then try a couple of LUTs - TIP: a lot of times I end up building the look manually, but with inspiration from the LUT previews. Perhaps one look is too dour, but I notice that it causes certain things to stand out against the BG in a way that I really like. So I go back to the R3D, set the mood I need first, then push the contrast curve to get the chiaroscuro-ish look I spotted while browsing LUTs.

I get that not everyone has a color pass in their pipeline, time/budgets/reality, I get it. That said, once you get a feel for how to do a quick trim pass and find a few LUTs you like, you should be able to get as much contrast snap as the AI in the Sony chooses to dole out with a lot more control over the flavor of the look. In my pipeline, this initial trim pass (sometimes via a CDL or other easy to share XML/etc file) is used to make editorial media that closely resembles the look and feel intended for final color (sans power windows, complex tracking, etc).

Cheers - #19
 
Eric Z said:
Congrats, RED Team!

I wonder how the VV would score on DxOMark...125+ ?
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From what I've come to understand, I think the vV sensor would score below the Helium... but somewhat better than the DSMC Dragon, I suspect.
 
Noah Yuan-Vogel said:
I dunno, from what I've seen, weapon 6k might tie helium 8k so 8k vv likely would beat them all.
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Hope you are right... but RED apparently chose to only submit the Helium for testing. '-)

doesn't matter though... 8k vV will still rule.
 
So what's up with them saying there is noise reduction going on? Red denies...
 
Jake Wilganowski said:
So what's up with them saying there is noise reduction going on? Red denies...
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Read what they say: "These factors make us suspect that there is some type of noise reduction happening in the RED system to provide such high-quality “RAW” images." = they suspect noise reduction because the sensor measures so well. Then they ably demonstrate no spacial NR. They say "RED’s sensors are well-suited for temporal noise reduction" but they don't demonstrate any occurring. As Jarred says and I'll confirm also, there's no noise reduction going on, and indeed, that's just what DxO demonstrate with their 3D graph.

Graeme
 
Random thought - wasn't the Dragon sensor originally tested inside an Epic Dragon body?

I wonder if tested inside a Weapon it would score higher now? Less noise, more highlights, etc?
 
Nick Morrison said:
Random thought - wasn't the Dragon sensor originally tested inside an Epic Dragon body?

I wonder if tested inside a Weapon it would score higher now? Less noise, more highlights, etc?
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Yeah that's what I was saying, it might beat weapon helium... from what I've seen it seems somewhat likely.
 
Nick Morrison said:
Random thought - wasn't the Dragon sensor originally tested inside an Epic Dragon body?

I wonder if tested inside a Weapon it would score higher now? Less noise, more highlights, etc?
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It would score better from bandwidth alone I think.

Some one should also lend them their 8k dragon I think that one would be of the charts.
 
I'm just fascinated by how this is even possible. How does Red finance the R&D to build custom sensors superior to Sony's? Even Canon can't do that, and nobody else even *tries*, including companies way way bigger than Red.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
What about the A7RII do you think is better? I definitely don't feel the same way.
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DP Review has a really cool web tool that lest you compare one camera to another. They do have the A7RII, though no Red yet. I am going over there tomorrow to shoot their test chart with the VV at 8K through 2K.
 
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