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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED Engineers are awesome.

Being unfamiliar with 3D LUTS but getting more excited by the minute, can you tell me how this will affect workflow? That is, after applying the LUT I want in-camera, does that look stay with the footage when loaded into an NLE, like Premiere Pro and/or Ae for instance. Do they have to put that capability in their apps via SDK or does it just work?

LUTs are the bestest. You can apply them in Premiere and AE (And Davcini, and Nuke and everything else). They don't currently tag along with the R3D because RED has no user defined LUT workflow besides RMD. It would be pretty trivial though theoretically speaking to include the filename in the RMD or even the entire CUBE LUT inside of the RMD sidecar. LUTs are generally pretty small and you would only need one per clip.

People shouldn't feel that unfamiliar with LUTS, every single RED user is already a 3D and 2D LUT user. An example of a 3DLUT that everyone already uses is REDColor. With user definable 3D LUTs you could create a 3DLUT that was somewhere in between REDColor 3 and DragonColor taking your favorite aspects of each and creating your own.

You could use it creatively like that SinCity shot (although both people's skin would probably be in color, not just the Girl's). I was reading a thing yesterday that Spock from Star Trek was supposed to be in red makeup but on black and white TVs he looked like he was wearing black face so they went with regular makeup. You could use it like Schindler's list to just pop red on a rose and preview your B&W lighting. In fact speaking of B&W, there is a big difference between Monochrome RED's sensitivity and simply desaturating a color Dragon image. With a 3D LUT you can very closely emulate Monochrome Dragon in your color Dragon (I've done just such a LUT). And different black and white film stocks had very different response curves. Some B&W stocks were more sensitive to blue, some more sensitive to green etc. Taking an image and desaturating it isn't how you want to go from Color -> Black and White since you lose all of that spectral information.

You could also use it for technical applications such as starting with DragonColor but then also get a custom false color that just highlights clipped values as solid red. And you can use it for less specific color correction like FilmConvert which gives a pretty good fascimile of Kodak, Fuji or Polaroid film stocks. The sky is the limit really (And how good your color separation is from the sensor) if you really like the look of Alexa, within the confines of the Dragon Sensor's capabilities you could apply a DragonColor -> AlexaColor LUT that outputs a nearly identical Alexa image. Handy on convincing a DP who isn't RED friendly or if you are mixing cameras on a shoot.

It's handy with VFX if you're planning on shooting someone on Greenscreen but then comping them onto a white Cyc wall, you can create a 3D LUT that takes all of the green and makes it white while de-spilling. That way your client is looking at them on dirty-white instead of green, which is great for product shoots so that their product isn't turning green. It can inform how color looks etc. The only thing a 3D LUT can't do is apply a correction within a window. So no isolating the effect in screen space.

How you use it in post is kind of up to you. You might create all of your dailies with a 3DLUT applied and then just use it as reference for the colorist like a CDL. Or you might completely trash it if you were just using it as a false color exposure guide. Or you might want something like FilmConvert and record directly to DNxHD using an SDI recorder that you give to the client at the end of the shoot--but that looks like it was shot on Kodak.


A 3D LUT is big spreadsheet. THIS exact value in = THIS exact value out.

Mark's right about this, but to be super technically pedantic generally it's not "THIS in = THIS out" since LUTs can't store all 10Billion colors. So for most colors it's interpolated between several key color samples. There are a few times where this crops up as problematic since someone might use linear interpolation and someone else might use cubic interpolation and then the LUT doesn't quite perfectly match. But that's the exception not the rule and only on extreme LUTs.
 
I hope you don't think I'm worrying. This is a great thing!

LUTs are the bestest. You can apply them in Premiere and AE (And Davcini, and Nuke and everything else). They don't currently tag along with the R3D because RED has no user defined LUT workflow besides RMD. It would be pretty trivial though theoretically speaking to include the filename in the RMD or even the entire CUBE LUT inside of the RMD sidecar. LUTs are generally pretty small and you would only need one per clip.

People shouldn't feel that unfamiliar with LUTS, every single RED user is already a 3D and 2D LUT user. An example of a 3DLUT that everyone already uses is REDColor. With user definable 3D LUTs you could create a 3DLUT that was somewhere in between REDColor 3 and DragonColor taking your favorite aspects of each and creating your own.

You could use it creatively like that SinCity shot (although both people's skin would probably be in color, not just the Girl's). I was reading a thing yesterday that Spock from Star Trek was supposed to be in red makeup but on black and white TVs he looked like he was wearing black face so they went with regular makeup. You could use it like Schindler's list to just pop red on a rose and preview your B&W lighting. In fact speaking of B&W, there is a big difference between Monochrome RED's sensitivity and simply desaturating a color Dragon image. With a 3D LUT you can very closely emulate Monochrome Dragon in your color Dragon (I've done just such a LUT). And different black and white film stocks had very different response curves. Some B&W stocks were more sensitive to blue, some more sensitive to green etc. Taking an image and desaturating it isn't how you want to go from Color -> Black and White since you lose all of that spectral information.

You could also use it for technical applications such as starting with DragonColor but then also get a custom false color that just highlights clipped values as solid red. And you can use it for less specific color correction like FilmConvert which gives a pretty good fascimile of Kodak, Fuji or Polaroid film stocks. The sky is the limit really (And how good your color separation is from the sensor) if you really like the look of Alexa, within the confines of the Dragon Sensor's capabilities you could apply a DragonColor -> AlexaColor LUT that outputs a nearly identical Alexa image. Handy on convincing a DP who isn't RED friendly or if you are mixing cameras on a shoot.

It's handy with VFX if you're planning on shooting someone on Greenscreen but then comping them onto a white Cyc wall, you can create a 3D LUT that takes all of the green and makes it white while de-spilling. That way your client is looking at them on dirty-white instead of green, which is great for product shoots so that their product isn't turning green. It can inform how color looks etc. The only thing a 3D LUT can't do is apply a correction within a window. So no isolating the effect in screen space.

How you use it in post is kind of up to you. You might create all of your dailies with a 3DLUT applied and then just use it as reference for the colorist like a CDL. Or you might completely trash it if you were just using it as a false color exposure guide. Or you might want something like FilmConvert and record directly to DNxHD using an SDI recorder that you give to the client at the end of the shoot--but that looks like it was shot on Kodak.




Mark's right about this, but to be super technically pedantic generally it's not "THIS in = THIS out" since LUTs can't store all 10Billion colors. So for most colors it's interpolated between several key color samples. There are a few times where this crops up as problematic since someone might use linear interpolation and someone else might use cubic interpolation and then the LUT doesn't quite perfectly match. But that's the exception not the rule and only on extreme LUTs.
Great explanation, Gavin.

So, will we someday be able to purchase differing looks (LUTS) like we can different OLPFs to apply in camera to produce a set (but non-destructive) grade to our footage?... for both live feeds and recorded to SSD?


EDIT: I think Brian Merlin offered to create some looks for distribution, earlier this year.
 
So, will we someday be able to purchase differing looks (LUTS) like we can different OLPFs to apply in camera to produce a set (but non-destructive) grade to our footage?... for both live feeds and recorded to SSD?

Sure. You can pretty easily convert any "Look" plugin into a 3DLUT format. FilmConvert even has a button to export your current Look Settings as a 3DLUT. So you could record and view looks from any of these companies:

http://vsco.co/
http://filmconvert.com/
http://www.redgiant.com/products/all/magic-bullet-looks/

All of the Speedgrade Look examples are already saved as 3DLUTs in the application directory:
http://helpx.adobe.com/speedgrade/u...image_0.img.png/LookManagementViewBrowser.png

As long as you don't use a mask you could also just use all of Photoshop or your grading application's tools to create a specific color correction and then export it as a 3DLUT.
 
One should keep in mind that a LUT is by definition designed to work with a particular range of input values, which makes it exposure dependent. The more extreme the transforms, the more exposure dependent it becomes. In the hands of the "less experienced," this can and does lead to poor exposures on the original material because they're judging exposure by looking at a heavily transformed image whose transforms might or might not have been designed using an image with similar original values and exposure. On top of that, you can't change a LUT, you can only change what's going into it and what comes out of it. This has led to the vast lack of understanding as to how to use them both in production and post, where the term "bad LUT" is often substituted for "bad exposure" because clipped or severely noisy images are being produced by its use.

Using the simplistic explanation of "you can converrt any look into a 3D LUT" ignores these very real issues.
 
But that's nothing new. People are already shooting in Redlog and underexposing their image because it looks "bright" in the monitor. People are also using bad ISO. That's why RED has a "RAW" view. To turn off all of that nonsense and go back to a neutral look.
 
In the hands of the "less experienced," this can and does lead to poor exposures on the original material because they're judging exposure by looking at a heavily transformed image whose transforms might or might not have been designed using an image with similar original values and exposure. On top of that, you can't change a LUT, you can only change what's going into it and what comes out of it. This has led to the vast lack of understanding as to how to use them both in production and post, where the term "bad LUT" is often substituted for "bad exposure" because clipped or severely noisy images are being produced by its use.

"more experienced" folks use light meters :)

but yes, your note is a very good one.
 
"more experienced" folks use light meters :)

but yes, your note is a very good one.

Said EXACTLY this on another thread recently. It's pretty simple really. Stick to the fundamentals. Film school 101. Treat it like film, and look at contrast ratios.

Works for me anyway.
 
More control, less user error

More control, less user error

Having seen countless bad assumptions made by even very experienced folks during the first couple years the RedOne was in the wild, I wouldn't dismiss the potential for unintended consequences.

Now that we are in the realm of computers with lenses, and not just REDs anymore, I believe there is a real need to re-educate the community. For example, here on RedUser the term "non-destructive" to refer to looks one can adjust and review in metadata that don't change the underlying R3D data set is understood by most (pun too good to pass up ;-). That said, there are a lot of very experienced crew members from the broadcast world for whom signal is signal. Sidecar file vs VBI data - commonalities and differences - explain in detail, go...

IAC, it would be great if the standard overlay that shows reel/clip on the left and TC on the right could have a field in the middle that notes rendering metrics - including a reference gamma - like rec709 G2.2 XXXX or some such. Would it be possible to use Fool Control or a RedMote to cycle through looks/LUTs remotely? Like for instance while standing at the monitor in video village?

Props to RED Engineering - #19
 
Would it be possible to use Fool Control or a RedMote to cycle through looks/LUTs remotely? Like for instance while standing at the monitor in video village?

It is already possible to change look presets via Foolcontrol remotely.

And you can currently make a custom overlay that displays the gamma in the middle of the screen between reel/clip and TC.
 
This is possible with a hack. I used this on the Dynamic Range testing with Stacey and it now lives on my Epic.

1) Enable linear in REDCineX
2) Save a look with linear gamma to the SSD.
3) Load the look into your camera.
4) Create a new preset that only affects Gamma and load the Linear Look.
5) Assign the Linear Preset to a button or hotkey.

6) Linear output!

Dude. Nice.
 
So conceivably, for anything (other than a live feed) that needed editing, an editor would be all you'd need?

A Luts or this now output is going to allow the Cinematographer to bake in a look on set, so when it does go to post they can't(can't is a strong word) or know the proper way of applying color.

A lot of Cinematographers use the example of Gordon Willis 'underexposing' the film while shooting the godfather, so if 'they' tried to push the stock up to a higher ISO, it would add grain, noise, basically he wanted to keep it dark. This adds to argument by cinematographers to use 'use film' over digital, stating they've created a look on set with the Film Stock, Filters and Lenses -- and want post-production to stay true to 'their look' for the film.

e.g. I might shoot in eastman/kodak 5207 and I did all my tests in a kodak stock that's discontinued, but I feel confident I'll get the same look out of the new stock because it's the replacement from kodak's old stock -- or even more relevant, I decide to shoot on a Red Epic Dragon, now I can match that look on set.

so while back the ASC developed this 'standard' for a grading process... (the rumors I've heard)Arri, Sony all got in line, but Red held out on giving out info about their secret sauce that makes up RedCode and so you have a compromise and exporting of this signal, which should work. Which is why you read earlier in the thread, someone saying you used to have to decode the signal...(I could be completely wrong about this, but who cares)


if only screenwriters had such power...
 
F yes!

We can shoot with the RAW view on camera and send a look out the SDI to our client monitors, so they can stop asking why it looks so washed out. Thanks Red. I cannot even think of all the cool stuff you guys do. I just found the horizon tool and mapped that to a key... very useful.
 
This is possible with a hack. I used this on the Dynamic Range testing with Stacey and it now lives on my Epic.

1) Enable linear in REDCineX
2) Save a look with linear gamma to the SSD.
3) Load the look into your camera.
4) Create a new preset that only affects Gamma and load the Linear Look.
5) Assign the Linear Preset to a button or hotkey.

6) Linear output!

haha
simplicity rules! :-)

that is an inversed rlf, though, but would def suit the purpose. especially if you manage to hit calibration iso so you don't compress the top or force the bottom down.

but that actually solves the riddle!
and with a tool i haven't really seen any use for.

oh the irony!

thx!

:-)
 
point is:
that idea is good as soon as you nail calibration iso.

but that shouldn't be too hard to figure.

i know what it seemed to be before olpf2 :-)
 
Oh, and I neglected to write the most important comment:

RED's engineers are a godsend.

I hope each of you read this and realize just how important you all are. Your efforts have made it possible for individuals to move beyond being mere consumers of content to developing as producers in every sense of the word. You brilliant gents and ladies have enabled marginalized groups to have an equal footing in "Hollywood" (whatever that means now). Anyone who expends the time and effort to learn the craft, can develop stories that challenge the status quo; we are able to tell the oft overlooked narratives that Hollywood somehow has conveniently missed -- since its birth over a hundred years prior. Haha. And now, thanks to many of the innovations you have ushered into the marketplace, these new age content producers can do so without compromising. The imagery produced by the RED is just as comfortable on the silver screen as the most funded content originating on any other platform. It is an amazing achievement and tool, and worthy of the highest honor that filmmaking can bestow.

But not too surprisingly, this technology has not been given its due. It's a little too disruptive to the hegemony. Ha.

Whatever. I have a lot of love for you guys, and I intend to make all of you proud by using it to its fullest. And as always...thanks, Jim. I know you're reading this. ;) And the same goes for you Jarred and Brent. :-D

My CF DRAGON is -- just awesome. I'm a lucky guy.
 
Ivan, ACES Proxy is a mode defined by the Academy for sending ACES encoded image data over a low (i.e. 10bit) bit depth link rather than how it would typically go out to a EXR. The colour space is ACES, and the linearity is a specific log based encoding. It's designed for on-set grading in an ACES environment. On other cameras you have to take their normal colour log output and put that through a magic box that does an IDT. With this mode, the output is direct to ACES.

Graeme

OK...This is very cool.
 
Any MX love, or is MX development essentially/officially dead in the water? Face down... Floating on the surface... Have to tell the kids it's just taking a nap, but then run out to the pet store and buy a replacement before they get home from school...
 
FW updates have usually benefited everything from the top down including the RED One. It seems that RAW view changes, etc go into dragon EPIC and Scarlet FW, so it might benefit all cameras.

battistella
 
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