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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Red Dragon: Candle and Match Low Light Tests

My sentiments exactly David.

David Mullen ASC said:
This site benefits from a wide array of experience and opinions, inside and outside of Hollywood... but it won't get any wider if many professionals are afraid to contribute to this site or don't take it seriously.
Click to expand...
 
Hi Phil, wondering if you think there would be more apparent noise with higher compression, before (or after) running neat video? I know this was a test for optimum performance and not compromised compression, but am curious. Not that it would be visible in a web compressed vimeo version anyway - just wondering about the full 5K file….
 
David Mullen ASC said:
This site benefits from a wide array of experience and opinions, inside and outside of Hollywood... but it won't get any wider if many professionals are afraid to contribute to this site or don't take it seriously.
Click to expand...

Agreed sir.


jason dewey said:
Hi Phil, wondering if you think there would be more apparent noise with higher compression, before (or after) running neat video? I know this was a test for optimum performance and not compromised compression, but am curious. Not that it would be visible in a web compressed vimeo version anyway - just wondering about the full 5K file….
Click to expand...

Well visible noise can increase with higher REDCODE compression ratios, particularly in shadows that penetrate into the noise floor. Dragon, however, holds a lot of detail and is fairly clean at these higher compression ratios if exposed properly. Black Shading and working within that calibration is key to get the highest quality material out of the camera if you are doing extreme high speed.

Recently I've been doing a lot of tests with Dragon at 5:1-10:1 for standard shooting. I'm actually enjoying the image at 8:1 a lot and is a nice balance in texture and file size. REDCODE does perform and look different when compared to Mysterium-X. Resolution also comes into play as there's a difference in finishing for 4K or 4K HD from 5K or a 6K image. So while the lower compression ratios will still yield the best possible image, you may find that there's a bit more creative freedom in there. The overcranked material looks real good at 15:1 from my experience too. I don't know if I'd just always shoot there though.
 
Paul Harb said:
I hope Red and its community shed this type of attitude in 2014.
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The man was spreading fud and I reacted to that. Matt addressed that in a better way and may have made a convert. May have been too little too late since a lot of people read a blurb and that becomes the last word on the subject.

That is all.
 
Phil Holland said:
Agreed sir.




Well visible noise can increase with higher REDCODE compression ratios, particularly in shadows that penetrate into the noise floor. Dragon, however, holds a lot of detail and is fairly clean at these higher compression ratios if exposed properly. Black Shading and working within that calibration is key to get the highest quality material out of the camera if you are doing extreme high speed.

Recently I've been doing a lot of tests with Dragon at 5:1-10:1 for standard shooting. I'm actually enjoying the image at 8:1 a lot and is a nice balance in texture and file size. REDCODE does perform and look different when compared to Mysterium-X. Resolution also comes into play as there's a difference in finishing for 4K or 4K HD from 5K or a 6K image. So while the lower compression ratios will still yield the best possible image, you may find that there's a bit more creative freedom in there. The overcranked material looks real good at 15:1 from my experience too. I don't know if I'd just always shoot there though.
Click to expand...

are you saving black shading presets for each ISO range above say 2000 or 3200?
 
jason dewey said:
are you saving black shading presets for each ISO range above say 2000 or 3200?
Click to expand...

No. I only Black Shade when my shutter speed dictates that I'm out of calibration spec. While Black Shading generates a CalMap it doesn't do anything in regards to noise reduction at higher ISOs.
 
jason dewey said:
are you saving black shading presets for each ISO range above say 2000 or 3200?
Click to expand...

Talking high shutter speed here. ISO doesn't really matter in black shading. ISO is just metadata. Shutter speed actually changes the light that the sensor sees.

EDIT: And to Phil's point above, the camera tells you when you ought to black shade, but you do have to pay attention to it. It's awfully easy to let it go, not spend the 10 minutes, and end up wishing you did later.
 
D Fuller said:
Talking high shutter speed here. ISO doesn't really matter in black shading. ISO is just metadata. Shutter speed actually changes the light that the sensor sees.

EDIT: And to Phil's point above, the camera tells you when you ought to black shade, but you do have to pay attention to it. It's awfully easy to let it go, not spend the 10 minutes, and end up wishing you did later.
Click to expand...

I just make a quick mental note.

Right now I shoot mostly 6K HD (16x9 screens are ruling this decision) with a 24fps timebase on Epic Dragon. I can shoot with a 180 degree shutter up to I think 75fps (camera isn't here right now) and that's within calibration spec. I can also open up to 1/24th if needed within the same calibration it would appear. That's a lot of freedom.

So right now my big mental note is if I'm going 96, 100, 120fps, etc... I Black Shade.
 
Hi Phil,
is it possible if you shoot a color chart?
i know dragon color science is not ready. but i really want to see the color response of the dragon sensor in each seperate color. just a single frame with color chart is enough.
thanks.
 
That depends. Ready for what?
For RED (specifically Graeme), it will probably NEVER be ready.
For us mere mortals, it's ready now and will probably keep getting better with time.


Paul Harb said:
Is there any word on when the color will be ready? Seems like a lot of Dragons are starting to ship now.
Click to expand...
 
What Marcos said. There will undoubtedly be new color science soon-ish. Remember though the Dragon Sensor, OLPF, and how it's working with REDcolor3 and the various gammas is already tuned differently than Mysterium-X.


Ergin Ozturk said:
Hi Phil,
is it possible if you shoot a color chart?
i know dragon color science is not ready. but i really want to see the color response of the dragon sensor in each seperate color. just a single frame with color chart is enough.
thanks.
Click to expand...

Daylight okay?
 
Here you go Ergin,

phfx_redEpicDragon_daylightColorChart.jpg


.R3D Snapshot: http://www.artbyphil.com/temp/reduser/phfx_redEpicDragon_daylightColorChart.zip

This is 3pm Los Angeles daylight, you can see the orientation of the sun in the chrome ball for the angle of incidence. I added a silver plated flashlight and a pure white shirt in there so you can see the dynamic range as well.

Shot at 95mm T10 and I adjusted the shutter speed to compensate for the bright day, so no ND filter. Wanted to give you something as "vanilla" as possible. In this exposure I rated my midtones at ISO 500 as that seemed to hold the most DR for this given scene.
 
Phil Holland said:
Here you go Ergin,

phfx_redEpicDragon_daylightColorChart.jpg


.R3D Snapshot: http://www.artbyphil.com/temp/reduser/phfx_redEpicDragon_daylightColorChart.zip

This is 3pm Los Angeles daylight, you can see the orientation of the sun in the chrome ball for the angle of incidence. I added a silver plated flashlight and a pure white shirt in there so you can see the dynamic range as well.

Shot at 95mm T10 and I adjusted the shutter speed to compensate for the bright day, so no ND filter. Wanted to give you something as "vanilla" as possible. In this exposure I rated my midtones at ISO 500 as that seemed to hold the most DR for this given scene.
Click to expand...

Phil. Thank you very much !!! I will work in on it.
 
I try to create color chart comparison by using previous alexa-epic color chart in cinematography.net (http://www.cinematography.net/valvula.html)

my biggest observation in cinematography.net color charts there is no proper "red color" in epic. although other colors are almost the identical in both cameras "red color" is so shifted and become "magenta". I try to match both camera with curves etc in Davinci Resolve but i could not match red and other colors at the same time. (ok if you match red color then the other colors are shift too much).

so that was my first and basic expectation from Dragon sensor and color science.

and here is very basic comparision of Phil's chart and cinematography.net carts combined. I am sure more professional guys can do better but so far i am so happy that now i can see "red" in dragon chart. Thank you guys:)

charts in order (left to right) : dragon-alexa-epic

color-comp.png
 
Ergin Ozturk said:
I try to create color chart comparison by using previous alexa-epic color chart in cinematography.net (http://www.cinematography.net/valvula.html)

my biggest observation in cinematography.net color charts there is no proper "red color" in epic. although other colors are almost the identical in both cameras "red color" is so shifted and become "magenta". I try to match both camera with curves etc in Davinci Resolve but i could not match red and other colors at the same time. (ok if you match red color then the other colors are shift too much).

so that was my first and basic expectation from Dragon sensor and color science.

and here is very basic comparision of Phil's chart and cinematography.net carts combined. I am sure more professional guys can do better but so far i am so happy that now i can see "red" in dragon chart. Thank you guys:)

charts in order (left to right) : dragon-alexa-epic

color-comp.png
Click to expand...




Color_Checker_Chart.png


Computer generated.
 
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