Real camera tests...

[Richard_JP]

Hiring a dp for an individual shoot that has already been approved is a bit different than getting executive approval at a huge corporation to engage in a shootout with other manufacturers.

At the other manufacturers HQ... Yeah I could see some stumbling points right there. Like it being fixed in favor of RED? I mean, at the end of the day, RED doesn't like the rules laid down by Zucuto, so they want to conduct their own test, so they can set their own rules... The rule that they want to impose is how good footage looks at 4k, when many of the cameras don't shoot 4k. Yes making your own rules will probably ensure that you win, but I don't think it adds anything to your credibility.

 

[Jason Sinclair]

Really who cares what camera you use?

Its a free world.

However that does not diminish from the fact that a) the Epic is vastly superior camera than the Alexa an almost every front. and B) Cannot even compare to DSLR's.

Masseratti might say our cars are superior to ford . I'm not going to get butthurt on that obvious fact. That masserati can't build their cars for half the price of a ford is about the only difference.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

i guess you did not read the manual. you can turn the fan off whilst shooting. You can set it to turn the fan off once the record button is on, and offwhen done. I have never heard off an Epic camera overheating in a long take. Did you report this issue to the red team?

You actually tested three bodies? Really.... Why do I smell "bullshit"?

Its statements like yours that make the rest of us loose jobs. there are a plethora or EPIC owners and users on this forum. You are the only one with Overheating problems.

Try to put the fan to lower than 35% on an Epic M wich has not been through the upgrade programm and call me back.
How long was your longest take with an Epic-X that had the fan set to 25%?


Pat

PS: I forgot to put : sound level of the camera while rehearsing.

 

[Álex Montoya]

That's going to be very cool.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Try to put the fan to lower than 35% on an Epic M wich has not been through the upgrade programm and call me back.
How long was your longest take with an Epic-X that had the fan set to 25%?
[/B]

'bout a minute or 2 inndoors before it sefdestructs, if memory serves me...

Fan is definitely there to stay...

 

[BigLu]

See, the thing is, you guys only look at this from one perspective. The big screen. But there are a plethora of reasons as to why many people don't feel any need to shoot 4k... because it's not often needed and creates problems later on. For example, I was working on a production last month that had super tight turn around times. We didn't want to shoot on the likes of the EX1 or similar, so we chose the Alexa. For us it was perfect, and meant that the turn around time was manageable. Something that wouldn't have been possible if we were shooting on RED. Obviously RED wants everything to be measured on resolution, as they will win. But for most people, 4k, 6k and whatever comes next isn't really important, as we aren't shooting for big screen. We are shooting for TV and the internet. I often wonder how many of you guys are actually shooting for the big screen...

Hi Richard,

You might like this one.

I have been in similar situations on multiple shoots where editorial had to begin immediately on set literally feet away from the camera to make extraneous deadlines. ( absolutely no time to transcode ) So when you say super tight turn arounds I say HELL YA lets do this.
See what made it extra special was the Coloring capabilities that the RED settings offered.
The DP and I took some time to set up the colors in the camera specific to his desired look on his monitor.
And what he saw in his directors / DP monitor at his table was exactly what the editors were getting in post, there for the color grades were set, dialed in and approved on the spot. HUGE WIN for all of us on set and in post. Clients were just pleased as they were part of the process.
I had multiple editors taking footage moments from when we called cut. Handed them over ProRes 422 files done ready to go they loaded the files into their computer and cut immediately.
1 project was even all Green Screen. You can go PR 4444 however in this case 422HQ was the way the editors wanted it.
( you can also go DNXHD if you desire )

They were absolute total successes each time each shoot.

Here is how I pulled it off.
http://www.aja.com/en/products/ki-pro-mini/#/overview

Today with the REDcolor 3 REDgamma 3 the results are even more pleasing. I did this actually over a year ago so the improvements are amazing today,
and for those who prefer a flatter look to work with and choose to color grade with more elasticity you have REDfilmlog.

So if you feel you CANT do it with REDone, Scarlet or EPIC dont be alarmed.
You can give this a test run and see how you feel about it.
Today I like this choice for various reasons.

http://www.sounddevices.com/products/pix.htm

But you dont have to take my word for it. Give it a whirl and see what you think.

All the best.
LUIS

 

[conrad gaunt]

Fan noise should be in the test,

I'd bet the Alexa with its slower , quieter, larger fan will beat Epic in terms of design.. but will still be noiser than a HDHero

 

[Josh Snyder]

At the other manufacturers HQ... Yeah I could see some stumbling points right there. Like it being fixed in favor of RED? I mean, at the end of the day, RED doesn't like the rules laid down by Zucuto, so they want to conduct their own test, so they can set their own rules... The rule that they want to impose is how good footage looks at 4k, when many of the cameras don't shoot 4k. Yes making your own rules will probably ensure that you win, but I don't think it adds anything to your credibility.

Zacuto doesn't make cameras. So what you said only applies to RED.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

See, the thing is, you guys only look at this from one perspective. The big screen. But there are a plethora of reasons as to why many people don't feel any need to shoot 4k... because it's not often needed and creates problems later on. For example, I was working on a production last month that had super tight turn around times. We didn't want to shoot on the likes of the EX1 or similar, so we chose the Alexa. For us it was perfect, and meant that the turn around time was manageable. Something that wouldn't have been possible if we were shooting on RED. Obviously RED wants everything to be measured on resolution, as they will win. But for most people, 4k, 6k and whatever comes next isn't really important, as we aren't shooting for big screen. We are shooting for TV and the internet. I often wonder how many of you guys are actually shooting for the big screen...

Well, I am not.


I really wish RED was marketing the rest of their system, too - not only the pixels.

We use REDs for TV drama a lot, and opted to stay RED when the Alexa came out, because the differences in quality was neglectable (for practical results), and with the improvements with the Epic, we're really satisfied. Not one of the reasons were the pixelcount in itself...

Scalability of workflow from quick turnaround "direct delivery" to "full DI" from the same signal depending on production, was one of our reasons. After all the R1MX RAW files are about the same size as the Prores 4444.

The practical results from the cameras weren't really different back then...
http://www.gunleik.com/tests/alexmx/RED1_MX_and_Arri_Alexa/Matching.html

But the artefacts introduced in the Alex through internal debayering (still there last time
I lokked) and compression (improved a lot) affected both apparent sharpness and use in a VFX pipeline...
http://www.gunleik.com/tests/alexmx/RED1_MX_and_Arri_Alexa/Resolution.html

With the Epic, we have an even more compact onboard RAW recording machine, that actualy handles overexposure the way we want it, First camera I have used that doesn't distort in the last stop before clip. So all is fun and good.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...s-with-an-Epic&p=796537&viewfull=1#post796537

I still like using the Alexa a lot, only wish it was more handleable/pricecompatible for a RAW workflow, where I think it shines compared to its prores/uncompressed modes...

The Alexa design, is a lot more userfriendly out of the box, though with nice places to place fat and clumsy fingers, like mine... I like that.
And the Old Bomb, lost RED a few sales here in Norway, that I know of.
Glad they decided to upgrade that solution!

 

[Perry Ho]

Great Job Mr. Jim! Totally Agree, and await for the real test to show the local film makers here in Mainland China,
Just done a tvc in Beijing Mainland China, I'd changed their mind to use Epic Camera instead of Alexa, at the end client, production and director loves the footage,
and the new Feature Film I just start shooting today, I had been explaining for many times to director, finally I can get to use 2 of Red Epic cameras for this project,
the first day - today I got a great feedback from the Director, he loves the Epic footage...

The customer has the right to know...

BTW... not worried.

Jim

 

[Jim Hoffman]

Real camera test!

Hobbit
Prometheus
Girl with the Dragon Tatoo
The Social Network
Etc.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

I have heard this argument over and over. The turn around time for a Red camera is the same as that of the Alexa. Straight to edit. Research please. Just because your preferred resolution is prores does not mean its faster turn around. Prores 4444 whether from Red or the Alexa is not the easiest playback codec, you still need a powerful computer with software running all cores. R3D has been straight to edit for at least the last 3 years. Now try Arri Raw, your turn around time will sloooooooooooooow down. Arri Raw is the absolute best resolution you can get out of the Alexa at a premium price. RedRaw is available out the box.

Why would you want to? When you can edit the R3D's directly. Prores is an intermediate codec. is your delivery format 4444 L0g C?

my brother you said fast turnaround. I don't use FCP, that's not fast turn around, regardless of what format you shoot on. Even if you use FCP, Some where down the line you will have to render out a delivery format using a lut matrix right? Well the Lut matrix of an RND file is purely metadata, whilst that of a prores file is destructive, right? so be it youtube, broadcast or big screen, you edit once with fast turnaround, very simple with R3D's and maintain superior quality in every instance. Whats not to love about that? you are either here to learn or to troll. So to have been on reduser since 2010 and not visited the workflow section is in my eyes trolling.

Shashbugu, you must be living in a different reality then I am. In my world (high end commercials, features) you don't get to dictate the post workflow most of the time. Yes, native R3D editing is a lovely thing, but if the client has chosen a post house that doesn't use that workflow, then you have to go along with what they are doing. So for you to dismiss FCP the way you did, is a bit questionable at this moment because many places are still using it, and still demand to have ProRes delivered to them. Will that change in the future, probably. I see a lot of people speaking in terms of self-contained pipelines, which is fine if the projects you work on allow for you to have full control. But many of us are hired by clients as a cog in the wheel and we need to adapt and make things work, whether we think it's the ideal way or not. Personally, I feel I can make RED workflow fairly easy for clients but it still doesn't mean they will go that route. There are going to be other factors that go into their decisions.

So please, try to keep an open mind about this when firing back at people who have to contend with these issues every day. Just because you know the RIGHT way to do something, doesn't mean that's going to be the way it's done out in the real world.

 

[Jannard]

This might be a good time to do a workflow test also... ?

We have already had a few ask for more time (a delay in the date) so that some new cameras could be included in the test.

Jim

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Shashbugu, you must be living in a different reality then I am. In my world (high end commercials, features) you don't get to dictate the post workflow most of the time. Yes, native R3D editing is a lovely thing, but if the client has chosen a post house that doesn't use that workflow, then you have to go along with what they are doing. So for you to dismiss FCP the way you did, is a bit questionable at this moment because many places are still using it, and still demand to have ProRes delivered to them. Will that change in the future, probably. I see a lot of people speaking in terms of self-contained pipelines, which is fine if the projects you work on allow for you to have full control. But many of us are hired by clients as a cog in the wheel and we need to adapt and make things work, whether we think it's the ideal way or not. Personally, I feel I can make RED workflow fairly easy for clients but it still doesn't mean they will go that route. There are going to be other factors that go into their decisions.

So please, try to keep an open mind about this when firing back at people who have to contend with these issues every day. Just because you know the RIGHT way to do something, doesn't mean that's going to be the way it's done out in the real world.

Steve... You are a very wise man!

The "all raw" idea, is all of a sudden "not so good" in larger production with specialist functions. Actually offline/online and specificc delivveries forrrrr specifiic needs is a huuuuuuge timesaver and problemsolver.

People seem sometimes to think that all RED productions are performed by one-man-bands or RED-only houses.
I'd guess that statistically in "total minutes of RED mral pproduced" that is actually not the case.
And in mixed environments, you'll have to find good workflows for different kind of scenarios and productions. From direct to delivery (why a simple prores transcode in RCX), to a full DI/VFX pipeline.

Niceeeee ing is that RED can fullfill both those needs.

Bad thing is when people start to confuse the pipelines...

 

[Gunleik Groven]

This might be a good time to do a workflow test also... ?

We have already had a few ask for more time (a delay in the date) so that some new cameras could be included in the test.

Jim

Roger that Maestro!

(This is a wgnerian day eh RED HQ!)

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Ah OK, maybe I'm not familiar enough with RED cameras then. My experience with RED has been MUCH slower post production times. So are you saying that you can record straight into ProRes with a RED camera?

No, he's saying you can take R3D media straight from the camera and go direct to edit. All too often people blame workflow hang-ups on RED when they really should be looking at the other tools in their pipeline. They should be questioning the tools that are holding them back from working with RED the way they want.

Several NLE systems, even systems like EDIUS that are targeted at fast turn-around broadcast editing, allow you to drop R3D files right into your bin or directly onto your timeline and edit just as if they were DV, ProRes, etc.. We have been able to connect RED media directly to a PC or Mac and drag the R3D clips straight from the media onto the timeline in Premiere and edit, without transcoding, copying etc.. for over 3 years now. Same within Sony Vegas Pro software. And yes, R3D files do require a lot more CPU horsepower -- mostly due to the wavelet decode. But before you pass judgement and complain about that aspect, just ask yourself this. How well do your systems handle 4K ProRes 4444 or 4K X264, etc.. ???

I've got two workstations here that can play back 5K EPIC footage at 1/2 res full quality in real-time without stressing and without a RED Rocket. One of them I built for about $3K. People who are finding R3D workflow to be difficult or too slow or <insert lame excuse here> are just doing it wrong. Period. Of course, there are also the types who want it to be too difficult and too slow because they're still trying to recoup other investments...

So can you edit R3D's in Final Cut then?

Apple is *finally* bringing support for R3D (and several other formats) to FCPX later this year. As for FCP7, it's EOL and lacks support for a lot of newer formats, not just R3D. Not to mention that it's stone-dead in so many other ways. 32bit, single-threaded, no GPU acceleration... I understand that a lot of people like it and they're comfortable there (I really like FCP as well), but all things come to an end and it's time to move on. ARRI and many of the companies making small ProRes recorders have made a killing by targeting the "you can have my FCP when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers" crowd by offering the native ProRes solution. But like all things, it too will come to an end and has all but run it's course. The whole external recorder thing is so 2010 and best left for DSLR territory (and the Canon C500, hehe). Now that many of these NLE softwares also support ARRI RAW natively, ARRI is beginning to feel pressure from those wanting a more reasonable (affordable and on-board) RAW recording solution.

To get this thread back on-track, I think this is where RED needs to place more focus in these camera tests. There is a shit ton of misinformation, FUD and straight-up lies that continue to circulate within the industry when it comes to R3D post workflow. Few people seem to question RED's image quality these days and the proof can be found all over the place from the big screen to local broadcast, RED is all over the place. It's time to start educating people on how quick and painless working with R3Ds can actually be. With native support for 4K/5K in systems like Adobe CS, we can deliver high quality 1080p/2K, or 4K or whatever, working direct from the RAW R3D files. No transcoding. No conform. Just edit, color finish.

If the attractive new camera (which has been out for years at this point) doesn't drop right into your workflow without jumping through hoops, perhaps it's not the camera's fault? I think we're more than past the stage of where people need to analyze their workflows and have the honesty to say, "hmmm... I guess my workflow is crap." Or at least consider the possibility that it's "dated".

 

[Steve Sherrick]

This might be a good time to do a workflow test also... ?

We have already had a few ask for more time (a delay in the date) so that some new cameras could be included in the test.

Jim

End to end solutions are always good. Here's another idea Jim. Stream the events on the web. I know that image quality won't translate to the web but a lot f other parts of the discussion might. Especially the workflow side of things. I thought what was done at Reduser event at NAB was great to have streaming. You can get a lot more people involved this way. In fact, I would do these types of things on a regular basis. For example, you could do a RED-Adobe workflow session. A RED-Avid session, etc.

 

[nickcolombini]

I would very much like to see the black magic cinema camera included, hopefully they take part!

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Jim, throwing out another idea. This again flies in the face of the camera testing competition, and I apologize if these suggestions are more irritating than helpful. I know Reducation is a commercial venture, so I have no idea if this could work for your bottom line but I'll throw it out there anyway. What about building a RED Channel, a web portal for videos that cover a lot of ground on getting the most out of the cameras, various post workflows, troubleshooting, etc. With the right PR, I think this could really go a long way to reaching the masses, allowing many people to see how this whole system works, and to have facts rather than hearsay.

You could have internal RED experts talking about exposure, how to use the in-camera tools, etc.
You could have guest DPs, like Jeff Cronenweth explain how they shoot with RED.
You could have specific workflow topics such as using a native workflow with RED.
How to grade with RED footage in Resolve.
How to blackshade a camera.
RED for producers workshop.

The possibilities are endless.

Again, this may not make any sense based on the business model, so I can't speak to that. Just throwing this out there, because I know quite a few people who would probably tune in. In my mind the best way to counter myths is to simply provide the correct information and make it widely available.

Just thinking out loud here.

 

[gbalaji]

Jim,

Its unfair to ask every camera manufacturer to come to your place to do camera test with whatever you said about and not everyone will participate for one simple reason being they are your direct competitor.

It will be better you participate in Zacuto's 'The Great Camera Shootout' as mentioned by Steve Weiss about how many email he send you for your agreed terms but no response. Never late you can still do it outside asking people like Vincent Laforte or Philip Bloom without Red sponsoring the event and It eventually turns out not to tell who is better rather which is better for conditions based on.

So it would be better if someone do it independently and you too can represent for Epic rather than doing in Red Studio, which will be of now use. Else you can ask ASC to do the test.

This is not an advise rather level playing field.