Real camera tests...

[George Tsai]

This is a challenge to see who's camera system can bring the best image, not a workflow contest. To do a test to see who has the best or fastest workflow I would say is nearly impossible given how many different workflow exists for every camera system and editing suite.

And I believe including DSLR in this challenge is actually quite fair, but only with the DSLR in stills mode. After all Red's DSMC concept directly challenges still photography cameras. Only difference Red's stills mode is same as video mode, but you would shoot it as you would shoot still photography. C300 and C500 is made for digital cinema so both are fair game.

So can we please keep on topic of the challenge and you guys can argue workflow in another thread.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Monday June 4th.

Every camera company is invited to RED Studios Hollywood for a comprehensive camera test.

Each company can bring their own cameras and techs to supervise the testing. Each camera company can take their resulting footage and process the best way they know possible.

Results will be posted in 2K and 4K. Results will be shown on a 10', 20' and 40' screen.

Comparisons will be made regarding resolution, dynamic range, color and frame rates.

Footage may be captured in RAW or RGB codec. Display will be DCP.

Jim

Great stuff!

G

 

[Lewis-M Soucy]

Please post the replies Jim!

 

[shashbugu]

I'm not trolling anymore than Jim trolls about other camera companies. If RED stopped shouting about how they are better than every other camera out there, and started focusing on being the best big screen camera, there would be a lot less sour taste in the air. They bash DSLR's and the C300, but at the same time, those cameras were never trying to compete with the likes of the EPIC. RED wanted to replace film, not replace magnetic tape. So why do they continue to compare themselves to cameras of a similar league. It's like the bully who picks on the small kid, know that he'll win. It's boring.

What do you mean FCP isn't a fast turn around time regardless of what format you shoot on? Shoot ProRes on the Alexa, edit it without any render time, and upload it. Simple as that. What's slow about that? I've been over to the workflow section, but it's true, I haven't read tons of info about it. I have only worked on 3 projects with RED footage, so I haven't had much need to. But let's put it like this, the production company that hired me for this project own 2 Epics and the DP has a Scarlet. They chose not to bring their cameras and to hire Alexa's. Does that not speak volumes?

Why do you guys see everything as a dig at RED, if it doesn't fit into the "Jim, you're amazing!" type comments? I'm saying that the resolution is the best. I'm saying that if I were shooting a feature film, I would shoot it on RED (or film). But I'm not, and therefore, a different camera choice might be the most logical choice. Sheesh!

Red does not make false representations about their camera. They simply state the obvious.

FCP is 5 year old technology .Period. if you shot on proress 422 with the Alexa, all I can say is your team must be very ill informed to think the Alexa was the best camera for that shoot. you could have used the cheaper F3.

Yell I/we will always call Jim and co amazing because nobody else is making cameras that produce 5k straight to edit on the planet period. Show me one.

I see everything RED because there is no other camera on the planet that can shoot ultra high resolution, youtube, broadcast, and big screen videos anywhere, anyspace, anytime, idea to vivid fantastic finish in real time. No second guessing the results. "Don't hate participate"

 

[Gunleik Groven]

So... Tweeted. I'll start mailing execs at some other companies...

Will be nice to see the Alexa 4:3 with ana glass in the soup!

Cheers

 

[Ray Sullivan]

What do you mean trans coding to ProRes? Please go back to my original point, we were shooting in ProRes because we were on FCP. Yes I've heard of Premiere Pro, but it was just called Premiere when I was using it. 2 reason I don't use it now. First is, I wasn't allowed to when i was at film school, nearly ten years ago (I'm sure they let students use it now). Secondly, I moved over to Mac, and it wasn't available. Now i could move across to Premiere, but that seems like a waste of ten years, and a waste of my time that could be better spent on, say, making money.

Yep, education sounds like a waste of your time alright.

 

[Richard_JP]

FCP is 5 year old technology .Period. if you shot on proress 422 with the Alexa, all I can say is your team must be very ill informed to think the Alexa was the best camera for that shoot. you could have used the cheaper F3.

We needed 120fps

Yell I/we will always call Jim and co amazing because nobody else is making cameras that produce 5k straight to edit on the planet period. Show me one.

I see everything RED because there is no other camera on the planet that can shoot ultra high resolution, youtube, broadcast, and big screen videos anywhere, anyspace, anytime, idea to vivid fantastic finish in real time. No second guessing the results. "Don't hate participate"

This place often sounds like a religious cult than a camera forum. You can not accept that any other camera can be justified for any reason, ever. Wow, I'd hate to be that narrow minded. Even Ted regularly acknowledges that a DSLR is a convenient tool for web, but making a feature film on it would be stupid.

Isn't this place supposed to be a real name forum?

 

[shashbugu]

What do you mean trans coding to ProRes? Please go back to my original point, we were shooting in ProRes because we were on FCP. Yes I've heard of Premiere Pro, but it was just called Premiere when I was using it. 2 reason I don't use it now. First is, I wasn't allowed to when i was at film school, nearly ten years ago (I'm sure they let students use it now). Secondly, I moved over to Mac, and it wasn't available. Now i could move across to Premiere, but that seems like a waste of ten years, and a waste of my time that could be better spent on, say, making money.

films schools don't teach you to be complacent. Your yearning to learn should be beyond film school. Secondly if you learnt only fcP in film school, you should get your money back. Most of us learnt how to shoot and edit regardless of the platform. Thirdly just because you don't know Premiere does not make FCP better. if you really believe you understand lighting then half a stop of DR difference between the Alexa and the Epic/Scarlet should not deter you from using the sharper better resolving camera.

 

[Richard_JP]

Yep, education sounds like a waste of your time alright.

Huh? My point was, I don't want to jump platforms as it will mean relearning a new editing suite. Doesn't seem like the best use of time to me. But then I guess you were just aiming to be rude. Nice.

 

[Richard_JP]

films schools don't teach you to be complacent. Your yearning to learn should be beyond film school. Secondly if you learnt only fcP in film school, you should get your money back. Most of us learnt how to shoot and edit regardless of the platform. Thirdly just because you don't know Premiere does not make FCP better. if you really believe you understand lighting then half a stop of DR difference between the Alexa and the Epic/Scarlet should not deter you from using the sharper better resolving camera.

We didn't learn either, we learned on Avid, but in my second year we were allowed to submit projects in FCP.

 

[shashbugu]

We needed 120fps



This place often sounds like a religious cult than a camera forum. You can not accept that any other camera can be justified for any reason, ever. Wow, I'd hate to be that narrow minded. Even Ted regularly acknowledges that a DSLR is a convenient tool for web, but making a feature film on it would be stupid.

Isn't this place supposed to be a real name forum?

My name is Shashbugu Bongo, Richard underscore JP. Are you just realizing this is a cult. We are not kids here. Call us fanboys or what have you,, the truth trumps all. My opinion is not as valid as the fact that using an Epic straight to edit is faster than shooting Alexa Arri-raw, and a atd faster than Arri LOG C. DVXuser is the forum for the inexperienced free to bash RED folk. TRust me many of us used to wish the Epic/Scarlet had a prores module. With time and a little Reducation whoosh we never looked back.

 

[Josh Snyder]

I have only one thing to say about this stupid dvxuser vs reduser debate; I could easily pick hundreds of videos from vimeo that has been shot with DSLR that are better in every way than 99% of the videos posted on "SHOT ON RED" section of this forum. It's not the camera, it's the person behind the camera.

 

[Yuval Shrem]

Just want to add a note about the post production debate here:

Most of the industry is still cutting on AVID. That is more due to hardware legacy at post-houses, than it is due to anything else, but that's still a fact.
Premier is currently the best tool for RED footage, but also generally speaking, Adobe offers the best all-around post-production package and the most bang for the buck.
Apple, on the other hand, seem to have shifted their focus from the professional market to the consumer market, and for very good reasons. For them, currently, that's where the money is.
In my opinion, investing in Apple professional software (FCP, Logic Pro) would be a mistake, as Apple seems to have quietly dropped the professional market. The Adobe workflow is completely render free up-to final delivery, even across the various applications in their package. They even include FCP and AVID keyboard layouts, so that editors can edit the way they are used to from the other platforms. 10 years ago there was a time when Premiere was slow and problematic for professional purposes.
That time is now long gone. Like Jim always say, everything in life changes. You'd better keep up and keep yourself informed, if you want to remain relevant.

Cheers,

 

[shashbugu]

We didn't learn either, we learned on Avid, but in my second year we were allowed to submit projects in FCP.

Bro I'm sorry if I come across as picking on you. I do sincerely apologize. I just want you to know that you POV of the Alexa vs Red argument is like a broken clock (stuck in time). The argued points being the same over and over again like a broken record. You can simply search reduser you'll see pages of threads years long on this same topic. The facts remain the same the Epic has more resolution and a higher DR up to 18 stops if you wish. Red is not in Competition with Arri, its the other way round. Red is in competition with Sony, but even they can't match the ergonomic specs of the EPIC. In 8 months they will be biting the dust.

 

[Richard_JP]

My name is Shashbugu Bongo, Richard underscore JP. Are you just realizing this is a cult. We are not kids here. Call us fanboys or what have you,, the truth trumps all. My opinion is not as valid as the fact that using an Epic straight to edit is faster than shooting Alexa Arri-raw, and a atd faster than Arri LOG C. DVXuser is the forum for the inexperienced free to bash RED folk. TRust me many of us used to wish the Epic/Scarlet had a prores module. With time and a little Reducation whoosh we never looked back.

OK, I'm bored now. I never said we were shooting Arri-RAW, I said we were shooting ProRes.

Yes yes, inexperienced, fully agree with you there. 10 years is nothing, and that isn't meant to be sarcastic. But I would rather gather as much experience as possible with every camera system out there, as appose to limiting myself to one. But that's just me.

 

[Evan Starkey]

Whats the point of this if no one learns anything come on guys my shout who wants a beer :beer:

 

[shashbugu]

I have only one thing to say about this stupid dvxuser vs reduser debate; I could easily pick hundreds of videos from vimeo that has been shot with DSLR that are better in every way than 99% of the videos posted on "SHOT ON RED" section of this forum. It's not the camera, it's the person behind the camera.

really?!!! Vimeo Really. that's your comparison. They are better in EVERyWAY? So you would buy a camera based on other peoples work on Vimeo? Making bold insulting claims against the impressive works on the shot on Red section is un-called for and emotes your intelligence depth.

 

[Josh Snyder]

really?!!! Vimeo Really. that's your comparison. They are better in EVERyWAY? So you would buy a camera based on other peoples work on Vimeo? Making bold insulting claims against the impressive works on the shot on Red section is un-called for and emotes your intelligence depth.

If people at dvxuser (and other smaller sites alike) are treated as inferior then it's nothing but appropriate to take a look and compare the quality of the videos posted on each site.

I said vimeo because the best creative work is shared on that site, but I could have also included youtube or any other site people use to upload their work to.

I don't buy camera based on vimeo videos. This comment was about people here treating other sites like they are place for lower quality work.

Is evertyhing black and white for you? I didn't insult anyone. If A is better than B it doesn't mean B is bad. B can still be good, it's just not as good as A.

 

[Madjid El ayari]

You are Right Jim, i am 100% with you .

A lot of us have got enough of these stupid test !

Let s make a real test, of all the camera , made by some real pro choosen and control by each company .( i definitely think the test have to be supervised by each company by some famous talented DOP, and high level post production company for the final color correction )

That will be a very helpful real test , not a stupid one we are getting used to have !!!

 

[Michael Hastings]

See, what you've done here Jim is appeared to have presented a fair test for everyone to join. But the fact is, you've given the other manufacturers just 1 month notice, therefore knowing that they probably wont be able to join. And now you'll snarl at the other manufacturers for not showing up, and the RED army will gloat about how the Epic would have kicked ass. Kinda childish. I'd say, to at least appear to be fair, give them a reasonable amount of notice, yeah?

If it makes you feel any better the Sony shoot I Dp'd last week for their Make.Believe campaign called me 1 week before the shoot. So a month is plenty of time....

Also, that shoot hadn't even booked equipment yet... Jim has already taken care of that.

Hiring a dp for an individual shoot that has already been approved is a bit different than getting executive approval at a huge corporation to engage in a shootout with other manufacturers.