Real camera tests...

[Matt Ryan]

Well I can tell you that a month generally isn't long enough for huge companies to respond. For example, I know for a fact that the only working FS700 in Europe, was booked out months ago for another shoot during that week. So yeah, I would say that this is short notice.

So the company who manufactures the camera has no access to it? Sure it might not be at many rental houses but you have to know they have them in hand...

 

[Richard_JP]

See, the thing is, you guys only look at this from one perspective. The big screen. But there are a plethora of reasons as to why many people don't feel any need to shoot 4k... because it's not often needed and creates problems later on. For example, I was working on a production last month that had super tight turn around times. We didn't want to shoot on the likes of the EX1 or similar, so we chose the Alexa. For us it was perfect, and meant that the turn around time was manageable. Something that wouldn't have been possible if we were shooting on RED. Obviously RED wants everything to be measured on resolution, as they will win. But for most people, 4k, 6k and whatever comes next isn't really important, as we aren't shooting for big screen. We are shooting for TV and the internet. I often wonder how many of you guys are actually shooting for the big screen...

 

[Richard_JP]

So the company who manufactures the camera has no access to it? Sure it might not be at many rental houses but you have to know they have them in hand...

Sony Europe only has one working pre production unit

 

[shashbugu]

See, the thing is, you guys only look at this from one perspective. The big screen. But there are a plethora of reasons as to why many people don't feel any need to shoot 4k... because it's not often needed and creates problems later on. For example, I was working on a production last month that had super tight turn around times. We didn't want to shoot on the likes of the EX1 or similar, so we chose the Alexa. For us it was perfect, and meant that the turn around time was manageable. Something that wouldn't have been possible if we were shooting on RED. Obviously RED wants everything to be measured on resolution, as they will win. But for most people, 4k, 6k and whatever comes next isn't really important, as we aren't shooting for big screen. We are shooting for TV and the internet. I often wonder how many of you guys are actually shooting for the big screen...

I have heard this argument over and over. The turn around time for a Red camera is the same as that of the Alexa. Straight to edit. Research please. Just because your preferred resolution is prores does not mean its faster turn around. Prores 4444 whether from Red or the Alexa is not the easiest playback codec, you still need a powerful computer with software running all cores. R3D has been straight to edit for at least the last 3 years. Now try Arri Raw, your turn around time will sloooooooooooooow down. Arri Raw is the absolute best resolution you can get out of the Alexa at a premium price. RedRaw is available out the box.

 

[Richard_JP]

I have heard this argument over and over. The turn around time for a Red camera is the same as that of the Alexa. Straight to edit. Research please. Just because your preferred resolution is prores does not mean its faster turn around. Prores 4444 whether from Red or the Alexa is not the easiest playback codec, you still need a powerful computer with software running all cores. R3D has been straight to edit for at least the last 3 years. Now try Arri Raw, your turn around time will sloooooooooooooow down. Arri Raw is the absolute best resolution you can get out of the Alexa at a premium price. RedRaw is available out the box.

Ah OK, maybe I'm not familiar enough with RED cameras then. My experience with RED has been MUCH slower post production times. So are you saying that you can record straight into ProRes with a RED camera?

 

[shashbugu]

Ah OK, maybe I'm not familiar enough with RED cameras then. My experience with RED has been MUCH slower post production times. So are you saying that you can record straight into ProRes with a RED camera?

Why would you want to? When you can edit the R3D's directly. Prores is an intermediate codec. is your delivery format 4444 L0g C?

 

[Richard_JP]

Why would you want to? When you can edit the R3D's directly. Prores is an intermediate codec. is your delivery format 4444 L0g C?

Fast turn around. That's my whole point. That's why the Alexa, in this case, was a clear winner.

So can you edit R3D's in Final Cut then?

 

[Ketch Rossi]

He he, this is what I'm talking about Jim... And yeah the dust in the eyes and misconception out there is unreal, I'm happy you don't have to hear what I'm hearing here in Europe, it will make you roll over all night long, or those few hours you actually do spend in bed...

Great idea, even so unfortunately I already know, this will not work out, in the sense the few if any companies will actually arrange for their representative camera and team to come to RERD STUDIOS, why? Well, isn't that OBVIOUS?!?

I love competition, but I would never got to race a FERRARI on with a FIAT 500, even if it is the new KICK A^%$# FIAT 500 ABARTH which really is a super fast little animal... Why? Well, because I am a sportsman, but I sure would not like to make a full of myself neither, if I don't have a comparable machine to race with I just wan't race, no matter how good of a driver I can be, if I don't got the horse power under my A^%$# it wan't cut it...

 

[Brice Ansel]

Fast turn around. That's my whole point.
So can you edit R3D's in Final Cut then?

Hopefully today we have more choices than finalcut Pro to edit.
Best
B.

 

[Harcharan Singh]

EPIC is the best Digital Cinema Camera produced till now...period
Harcharan

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Comparisons will be made regarding resolution, dynamic range, color and frame rates.

Jim

The test should also contain shooting ergonomics.

Image quality is necessary for a camera manufacturer but is the camera usuable on a shooting set?

I had a lot of trouble with the Epic due to sound noise level and over heating in long takes.

How long can we shoot without technical limitations like media or heat?
Wich sound level does the camera/media do?

I tested 3 different bodies M and X's and they all showed different results regarding these aspects.


Thanks

Patrick

 

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

So can you edit R3D's in Final Cut then?

I'm not sure when but apparently you will be able to by the end of the year, wether or not It'll run smooth on my early 2009 macbook pro with 8GB of ram is something else completely, in that case the Alexa may still be a better camera for me.

 

[shashbugu]

Fast turn around. That's my whole point. That's why the Alexa, in this case, was a clear winner.

So can you edit R3D's in Final Cut then?

my brother you said fast turnaround. I don't use FCP, that's not fast turn around, regardless of what format you shoot on. Even if you use FCP, Some where down the line you will have to render out a delivery format using a lut matrix right? Well the Lut matrix of an RND file is purely metadata, whilst that of a prores file is destructive, right? so be it youtube, broadcast or big screen, you edit once with fast turnaround, very simple with R3D's and maintain superior quality in every instance. Whats not to love about that? you are either here to learn or to troll. So to have been on reduser since 2010 and not visited the workflow section is in my eyes trolling.

 

[Ray Sullivan]

See, the thing is, you guys only look at this from one perspective. The big screen. But there are a plethora of reasons as to why many people don't feel any need to shoot 4k... because it's not often needed and creates problems later on. For example, I was working on a production last month that had super tight turn around times. We didn't want to shoot on the likes of the EX1 or similar, so we chose the Alexa. For us it was perfect, and meant that the turn around time was manageable. Something that wouldn't have been possible if we were shooting on RED. Obviously RED wants everything to be measured on resolution, as they will win. But for most people, 4k, 6k and whatever comes next isn't really important, as we aren't shooting for big screen. We are shooting for TV and the internet. I often wonder how many of you guys are actually shooting for the big screen...

I have to take issue with your post here Richard. It seems to me that you are only looking from one perspective yourself.

4K is not needed on every project, this is true. But you're not forced to stick with 4K in post. Have you heard of Adobe Premiere?

In Premiere you can change your resolution on the fly, no need for transcoding to prores or anything else because the r3d files work natively.

This is not a slow process, it's instantaneous Richard.


And while 4K was one feature that attracted me to buying my Scarlet, it sure as shit was not the only one!

The main ones being HDRx, Canon auto-focus, the small size, easy workflow, firmware updates and an upgrade path to Dragon (well, that came afterwards).


A lot of people have misconceptions about RED cameras and their workflow. But in fairness, I find that they simply don't have enough knowledge of how to handle either.

 

[shashbugu]

The test should also contain shooting ergonomics.

Image quality is necessary for a camera manufacturer but is the camera usuable on a shooting set?

I had a lot of trouble with the Epic due to sound noise level and over heating in long takes.

How long can we shoot without technical limitations like media or heat?
Wich sound level does the camera/media do?

I tested 3 different bodies M and X's and they all showed different results regarding these aspects.


Thanks

Patrick

i guess you did not read the manual. you can turn the fan off whilst shooting. You can set it to turn the fan off once the record button is on, and offwhen done. I have never heard off an Epic camera overheating in a long take. Did you report this issue to the red team?

You actually tested three bodies? Really.... Why do I smell "bullshit"?

Its statements like yours that make the rest of us loose jobs. there are a plethora or EPIC owners and users on this forum. You are the only one with Overheating problems.

 

[Gary Paul Walker]

A lot of people have misconceptions about RED cameras and their workflow. But in fairness, I find that they simply don't have enough knowledge of how to handle either.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. having just shot a short with nothing but the base package.. thats 1 64gb card, a middlemarket dell xps with eSata and two redvolts. I was able to do a rough cut in 30 mins on set, and could show the producer/director the direction the short was going in.

The amount of times I was told that the Red workflow was difficult by people in the industry was ridiculous and misinformed. Of course, you can always have a more powerful computer, more media and more batteries - but lets face it, thats about cutting down on your turnaround time, not the ease of the workflow.

I applaud Red for putting their nuts on the chopping block. It shows a level of confidence in their product that we dont see from the likes of Canon (because if they were truely confident in the C300 as a cinema camera, they wouldn't have announced the C500).
Lets see the cameras used and displayed at their very best, without the need to handicap one to 'level the playing field'. Then the consumers and the production community can make a fully-informed decision

 

[Richard_JP]

my brother you said fast turnaround. I don't use FCP, that's not fast turn around, regardless of what format you shoot on. Even if you use FCP, Some where down the line you will have to render out a delivery format using a lut matrix right? Well the Lut matrix of an RND file is purely metadata, whilst that of a prores file is destructive, right? so be it youtube, broadcast or big screen, you edit once with fast turnaround, very simple with R3D's and maintain superior quality in every instance. Whats not to love about that? you are either here to learn or to troll. So to have been on reduser since 2010 and not visited the workflow section is in my eyes trolling.

I'm not trolling anymore than Jim trolls about other camera companies. If RED stopped shouting about how they are better than every other camera out there, and started focusing on being the best big screen camera, there would be a lot less sour taste in the air. They bash DSLR's and the C300, but at the same time, those cameras were never trying to compete with the likes of the EPIC. RED wanted to replace film, not replace magnetic tape. So why do they continue to compare themselves to cameras of a similar league. It's like the bully who picks on the small kid, know that he'll win. It's boring.

What do you mean FCP isn't a fast turn around time regardless of what format you shoot on? Shoot ProRes on the Alexa, edit it without any render time, and upload it. Simple as that. What's slow about that? I've been over to the workflow section, but it's true, I haven't read tons of info about it. I have only worked on 3 projects with RED footage, so I haven't had much need to. But let's put it like this, the production company that hired me for this project own 2 Epics and the DP has a Scarlet. They chose not to bring their cameras and to hire Alexa's. Does that not speak volumes?

Why do you guys see everything as a dig at RED, if it doesn't fit into the "Jim, you're amazing!" type comments? I'm saying that the resolution is the best. I'm saying that if I were shooting a feature film, I would shoot it on RED (or film). But I'm not, and therefore, a different camera choice might be the most logical choice. Sheesh!

 

[Lauri Kettunen]

but I would never got to race a FERRARI on with a FIAT 500

Hi Ketch, you should know much jokes nordic people have of Italian cars, especially of Fiat, in true winter conditions. Still, not sure which one a Ferrari or Fiat manages better in cold and on snowy and icy roads. ;-)

Nevertheless such a test is a great idea. Everybody can control themselves their images and then the outcome is compared against each other. This leaves little space for marketing talk and shifts the emphasis on the facts of image quality.

 

[Subhadip Sen]

If you must use ProRes 1080p in this day and age, simply attach an external recorder. You could buy a dozen of them and the Epic will still be cheaper than the Alexa.

 

[Richard_JP]

I have to take issue with your post here Richard. It seems to me that you are only looking from one perspective yourself.

4K is not needed on every project, this is true. But you're not forced to stick with 4K in post. Have you heard of Adobe Premiere?

In Premiere you can change your resolution on the fly, no need for transcoding to prores or anything else because the r3d files work natively.

This is not a slow process, it's instantaneous Richard.


And while 4K was one feature that attracted me to buying my Scarlet, it sure as shit was not the only one!

The main ones being HDRx, Canon auto-focus, the small size, easy workflow, firmware updates and an upgrade path to Dragon (well, that came afterwards).


A lot of people have misconceptions about RED cameras and their workflow. But in fairness, I find that they simply don't have enough knowledge of how to handle either.

What do you mean trans coding to ProRes? Please go back to my original point, we were shooting in ProRes because we were on FCP. Yes I've heard of Premiere Pro, but it was just called Premiere when I was using it. 2 reason I don't use it now. First is, I wasn't allowed to when i was at film school, nearly ten years ago (I'm sure they let students use it now). Secondly, I moved over to Mac, and it wasn't available. Now i could move across to Premiere, but that seems like a waste of ten years, and a waste of my time that could be better spent on, say, making money.