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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Quick Question? Where did Dalsa Origin go wrong ?

What seems so strange to me, is that Sony, Canon, Arri, and almost every camera manufacturer, reveal the source of the sensor manufacturer, but Red.. mmm..
 
I remember the camera well. And I remember seeing the prototype of the 2nd version at the DGA. I also believe thata Dan Sasake made some special prime lenses for the Dalsa.

Lavar Burton (yes that Lavar Burton) directed a feature entitled "Reach for Me" using the Dalsa. Generated a lot of data and it was huge. But some nice images. And produced Deanan which was a great thing for all of us.
 
I used to rent F900 packages through Dalsa, and in fact used their 4K camera as a prop in a movie once. Their rental department was great from what I remember , all the gear was brand new. - Ilya Friedman and Alan Lasky were there for a while, and my impression was it was a first rate rental house. As for the Origin camera - yeah it was BIG. Not particularly heavy, but sort of tall and boxy, like a blimped Mitchell. The data side of things was completely ridiculous - and the overall rental price was prohibitive. Dan Sasaki did in fact engineer a set of beautiful 4K prime lenses for the Origin camera - they were original Leica R's I think, then given a very Panavision flavored rebarrel and machining. When Dalsa folded, much of their gear migrated out into the inventories of other rental houses. At least one set of the Sasaki Dalsa lenses is over at Alan Gordon....

http://www.alangordon.com/rental/lenses/hdslr/leica-digital-primes.php

Maybe worth renting for all you Dragon riders out there. Will cover 6K FF I believe.

I didn't know Deanan came from the Dalsa camp. Small world.
 
Reach For Me was the first 4K end-to-end production. It should definitely be a part of the Odemax offerings.
 
Pablo Moreno said:
What seems so strange to me, is that Sony, Canon, Arri, and almost every camera manufacturer, reveal the source of the sensor manufacturer, but Red.. mmm..
Click to expand...

I don't know anything about Mysterium sensors, but if we're talking Dragon, then you still could probably read some bits that Jim and Jarred posted on this forum about the next-level pixel design and hints of other improvements in the new sensor. If I'm allowed to speculate, I'd say it most likely made in-house, therefore they've assembled some really clever engineering team or they work in very tight collaboration with those deep underground area 51 labs... j/k.
 
Michael Hardwick said:
I used to rent F900 packages through Dalsa, and in fact used their 4K camera as a prop in a movie once. Their rental department was great from what I remember , all the gear was brand new. - Ilya Friedman and Alan Lasky were there for a while, and my impression was it was a first rate rental house. As for the Origin camera - yeah it was BIG. Not particularly heavy, but sort of tall and boxy, like a blimped Mitchell. The data side of things was completely ridiculous - and the overall rental price was prohibitive. Dan Sasaki did in fact engineer a set of beautiful 4K prime lenses for the Origin camera - they were original Leica R's I think, then given a very Panavision flavored rebarrel and machining. When Dalsa folded, much of their gear migrated out into the inventories of other rental houses. At least one set of the Sasaki Dalsa lenses is over at Alan Gordon....

http://www.alangordon.com/rental/lenses/hdslr/leica-digital-primes.php

Maybe worth renting for all you Dragon riders out there. Will cover 6K FF I believe.

I didn't know Deanan came from the Dalsa camp. Small world.
Click to expand...

I would think a 4k pioneer company like Dalsa Origin would try to make a comeback and make a camera that could compete with other cameras and companies. But then again in could be in the X-FILES case at RED lol who knows
 
1st off... we never recruited Dalsa employees. The only person that worked at Dalsa and came to RED was Deanan... and he recruited us. Deanan was awesome at RED BTW.

2nd... Dalsa sensors for that camera were CCD, not CMOS.

3rd... Dalsa never made sensors for RED. RED has a large in house team of sensor designers and does not share sensor technology with any others. The evidence is that you will not find anything similar in performance to the MX or Dragon sensors in the market.

Jim
 
Pablo Moreno said:
What seems so strange to me, is that Sony, Canon, Arri, and almost every camera manufacturer, reveal the source of the sensor manufacturer, but Red.. mmm..
Click to expand...

Who makes the sensor for Alexa?
 
Jannard said:
RED has a large in house team of sensor designers and does not share sensor technology with any others. The evidence is that you will not find anything similar in performance to the MX or Dragon sensors in the market.

Jim
Click to expand...

Even if the sensors are designed in house by Red, someone must fabricate them in fabrication facility. Who does that part?
 
Pablo... I really don't think you know who designs or manufactures sensors for each company you have listed.

There are two parts to building sensors... design and fabrication. While the fabrication process is important, none of the "keys" are held there. All magic is done at the pixel and sensor design level. The fabs don't even have access to the actual designs or important IP. While some of the companies you listed use outside sensor design companies... RED does not. As stated before, we have our own in-house team.

Jim

Pablo Moreno said:
What seems so strange to me, is that Sony, Canon, Arri, and almost every camera manufacturer, reveal the source of the sensor manufacturer, but Red.. mmm..
Click to expand...
 
Jim

Design teams apart how far do you see the potential developmemt of CMOS chips beyond the latitude/resolving power of the human eye?

Analogue film had 100 years of refinement within a confined physical medium.

What's next? Is the future plenoptic?
 
Jannard said:
Pablo... I really don't think you know who designs or manufactures sensors for each company you have listed.


There are two parts to building sensors... design and fabrication. While the fabrication process is important, none of the "keys" are held there. All magic is done at the pixel and sensor design level. The fabs don't even have access to the actual designs or important IP. While some of the companies you listed use outside sensor design companies... RED does not. As stated before, we have our own in-house team.


Jim
Click to expand...


I wasn't implying in any way that your sensors are from Dalsa or someone else Jim, I was just curious like everybody else. Thank you for let us know that Red designs its own sensors, and like you said, the manufacturer doesn't matter. Apple does that all the time, (designed in America, made in China). I was just curious because we read about it all the time on the web.

Like in this page:

"ARRI is currently utilizing the ALEV III CMOS Image Sensor in a number of its professional digital motion picture cameras, which are being utilized throughout the industry to produce commercials, leading box office movies and popular television programs such as Game of Thrones, Downton Abbey and Mad Men".

And Sony, (read somewhere too), makes its own sensors, but the technology behind it, is from some well known companies like Aptina and Omnivision... Anyway, I was just wondering..
 
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Jannard said:
Pablo... I really don't think you know who designs or manufactures sensors for each company you have listed.

There are two parts to building sensors... design and fabrication. While the fabrication process is important, none of the "keys" are held there. All magic is done at the pixel and sensor design level. The fabs don't even have access to the actual designs or important IP. While some of the companies you listed use outside sensor design companies... RED does not. As stated before, we have our own in-house team.

Jim
Click to expand...

I know you said you do in house but was Dalsa Origin ever benchmarked because did not come up with 4k sensors.
 
Jannard said:
Pablo... I really don't think you know who designs or manufactures sensors for each company you have listed.

Jim
Click to expand...

I am pretty sure Sony semiconductor division designs and fabricates and sells sensors to other companies. That's what they do for a living. I doubt Sony imagining division would look anywhere else to buy/designs sensors but their own semiconductor division.. Canon designs and fabricates sensors for their DSLRs but doesn't sell them.
 
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Think of sensors in the same light as computer chips. ARM design the chips and hold all the IP, that's their speciality. When it comes to manufacturing them, they don't have the skills, or desire to build a massive processing plant to roll them off the production line. Instead, they farm that out to a second party and take a 1 English penny licensing royalty on every chip made. If you think about the number of iPads out there, just to mention one product, you can see the size of the potential return.

In RED's case, again, the skills are in design and IP, it's just probably easier and cheaper for a company with a pre-existing production line to knock them out the door for RED. They then get to sell them exclusively as they've chosen not to be a reseller. Jarred has stated before that they have a few military clients too, so i'll take a guess and say that the sensor IP and design team are probably put to work on other camera sensors or the like that we don't even know about!
 
Rehan K said:
I am pretty sure Sony semiconductor division designs and fabricates and sells sensors to other companies. That's what they do for a living. I doubt Sony imagining division would look anywhere else to buy/designs sensors but their own semiconductor division.. Canon designs and fabricates sensors for their DSLRs but doesn't sell them.
Click to expand...

oOO!, you are going to have to google a little bit more..

http://www.engadget.com/2013/03/01/aptina-and-sony-cross-license-each-others-camera-patents/
 
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