Observations...

[brett ogden]

Hey Brian... I know it can seem like a total madhouse. It is. And it is like that every year.

We are definitely not a normal company and the way we release products is not normal. We release our new products not through press releases, but in an open conversation with our customers, right here... every year.

We change things 15 times over and over even at the very last moment, alot of times while I am literally typing the posts. It is organic... and yes it can look like a total clusterfuck.

It would make a PR person commit suicide.

We of course do have "normal" info on our website that launches right after I start posting about the new products like a normal company would.. but you can never answer every question in a brochure.

Some missing info that may seem basic may not be known yet, some things we are in the process of making better, or some things may of just slipped through the cracks.

Our customers ask the best questions.. and we love being here to answer them. Questions we could never even think of.. and that keeps us fast fluid and flexible.

I know the fractured info is frustrating. It always takes us a couple days for all our information on website to catch up with all the changes we make here in that first 24 hours.

Phil has been awesome at shadowing us this year and summarizing from a customer perspective which has been incredibly helpful.

And thank you for all of you guys and girls that are here with us in the middle of the night every Sunday as we roll things out as part of the process.

It is one big hot mess, and we couldn't imagine it any other way.

Phil did a fantastic job this year at summarizing info, may I suggest that you invite him to help write the announcements next year? This could be very beneficial to everyone since he could summarize / review the posts before they are public and just maybe prevent some of the chaos.

 

[Scott Crawley]

RED should SERIOUSLY consider hiring a Clarity Czar.

Hearing directly from yourself, Jarred and Jim (occasionally) has its charm and appeal. But, with events like this, where everyone is busy getting ready for the show and being pulled in 10 different directions at once, there needs to be someone who can go over all official information and make sure it makes sense to the people who aren't already familiar with it.

How is Ted doing these days... Well I hope? Maybe he's not so well that he couldn't be tempted to rejoin the chuckle factory? That guy sure was good to have around.

I hate ate the Czar thing though. How bout an Expectations Wrangler or if you prefer subversive, a Minister of Propaganda?

 

[Zeb B]

Definitely... Monochromes have a special place in the lineup and upgrade paths will exist.. just not ready yet.

From what I understand today from my BS Rep:

There is no upgrade path to 8K of any form (color or mono) from Mono Dragon
There is no upgrade option for brain only Mono Weapon - only a 6K package around $50K with a $17,500 credit (for the $31,500 brain) . . . which means paying an additional $32K for a different body style / system with marginal spec improvement. As the owner of both Color and Mono it is a tall order to ask to drop cash for 2 complete Weapon systems. One system with two brains has served me well to this point.

Would like to confirm, from the source, that Mono Dragon is end of life at 6K and has no place in RED's 8K future.
Also would like to confirm that those who purchased the 6K Mono Dragon are not able to upgrade to 8K directly. We have little need to drop an extra $32K on a 6K Weapon package if there is still no path to 8K. Why not layout a path from 6K Mono Dragon direct to 8K Color Weapon? Been asking for this since NAB. Not sure why Mono owners have been left behind with the new focus which seems to be on entry level gear.

 

[Zeb B]

Am respectfully asking a RED reply to my above inquiry

 

[Björn Benckert]

Am respectfully asking a RED reply to my above inquiry

I don't speak for RED but Zeb, For sure there will be a 8k mono and I would no doubt that you then can do an upgrade from your current status. But at the moment it looks like the monochrome is the last in line to get updated, seams like red has their hands full with the other upgrades and monocrome came last in the dragon upgrade so I assume thats what will be also this time around.

 

[Jarred Land]

Yeah what Bjorn said.

 

[Brian Merlen]

Thanks for clearing that up!

 

[Zeb B]

Yeah what Bjorn said.

Why not lay out a direct upgrade path from Mono Dragon to 8K Color or Mono today? As it is, RED has dropped the price of Dragon Mono by about 75% via the Scarlet Mono. Seems a bit odd to blow apart the balance sheet of a loyal customer (of a $32K Mono) with the Scarlet Mono without co-announcing a direct 8K path forward for those who support you at the much higher price level. The concept of just wait until sometime in 2016 to hear what the path is seems to be a punt. Either you guys have a road map or not. If you have one please share it.

In the bigger view: not sure if RED serves the high end or the entry level anymore. Hard to be both a Ferrari and Chevy at the same time. Seems to be the cine customer best bet to buy RED entry level gear and pitch it after a year rather than "invest" in the new high end. I bought at the high end with Mono Dragon and Dragon just to see entry level gear suck the value out of it very quickly. No big deal that technology advances and costs come down but there was no need to treat someone who trusted that there would be a future with Mono Dragon with as has been done to date.

If there no 8K path forward for Mono then just say so today. If there is not path forward for a $32K RED brain to 8K let that be a cautionary tale for those who "invest" in RED gear.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Why not lay out a direct upgrade path from Mono Dragon to 8K Color or Mono today? As it is, RED has dropped the price of Dragon Mono by about 75% via the Scarlet Mono. Seems a bit odd to blow apart the balance sheet of a loyal customer (of a $32K Mono) with the Scarlet Mono without co-announcing a direct 8K path forward for those who support you at the much higher price level. The concept of just wait until sometime in 2016 to hear what the path is seems to be a punt. Either you guys have a road map or not. If you have one please share it.

In the bigger view: not sure if RED serves the high end or the entry level anymore. Hard to be both a Ferrari and Chevy at the same time. Seems to be the cine customer best bet to buy RED entry level gear and pitch it after a year rather than "invest" in the new high end. I bought at the high end with Mono Dragon and Dragon just to see entry level gear suck the value out of it very quickly. No big deal that technology advances and costs come down but there was no need to treat someone who trusted that there would be a future with Mono Dragon with as has been done to date.

If there no 8K path forward for Mono then just say so today. If there is not path forward for a $32K RED brain to 8K let that be a cautionary tale for those who "invest" in RED gear.

Today there is a Scarlet W mono only on the list of promises from RED. It will possibly be the status of things, me guessing until summer, or even longer. So what you got at hand is the best monocromatic film camera availble on the planet. That you paid a bit extra for and you probably will have 2 years usage of it before the scarlet mono is out and then the epic dragon mono is still top dog as it got 6k.... Then Jarred just promised you a 8k upgrade path so what is the complain about?

 

[Brian Merlen]

maybe there is a path and plan right now even, but the market is so small that they will address mono owners specifically? how many of them were sold i have to wonder? jarred seems to indicate you will be okay though

 

[Zeb B]

Today there is a Scarlet W mono only on the list of promises from RED. It will possibly be the status of things, me guessing until summer, or even longer. So what you got at hand is the best monocromatic film camera availble on the planet. That you paid a bit extra for and you probably will have 2 years usage of it before the scarlet mono is out and then the epic dragon mono is still top dog as it got 6k.... Then Jarred just promised you a 8k upgrade path so what is the complain about?

Björn, Would love to hear it direct from RED: is there a Mono to 8K path today? If not - why not? This was your top range camera sensor per Jim. Why the last place in line for upgrades and currently EOL path (per my BS Rep's email) suddenly?

To Brian's point: yup, the Mono Dragon ownership is small enough to take care of those who you believe deserve rewarding with a direct to 8K upgrade. Like Casinos do in Vegas with VIP's . . . different rules for different customers. Hopefully that is not the case with Mono Dragon but I find it strange that I am the only owner who is raising the obvious point of a void in flagship camera upgrade path.

If stating reality is "complaining" then release those vicious RED User hounds upon me

 

[Phil Holland]

Björn, Would love to hear it direct from RED: is there a Mono to 8K path today? If not - why not? This was your top range camera sensor per Jim. Why the last place in line for upgrades and currently EOL path (per my BS Rep's email) suddenly?

To Brian's point: yup, the Mono Dragon ownership is small enough to take care of those who you believe deserve rewarding with a direct to 8K upgrade. Like Casinos do in Vegas with VIP's . . . different rules for different customers. Hopefully that is not the case with Mono Dragon but I find it strange that I am the only owner who is raising the obvious point of a void in flagship camera upgrade path.

If stating reality is "complaining" then release those vicious RED User hounds upon me

The simple answer is likely nothing has been officially outlined or announced yet. At the moment 8K is going to get released in a small number according to Jarred's update a bit ago in December 2015/January 2016, a small batch at that.

Jarred's reply in this thread leads me to believe that there is an official plan for Epic Monochrome to occur likely in Weapon 6K and 8K (or just perhaps 8K). It just hasn't been hammered out yet. Yes, Scarlet-W Monochrome has been announced and has been shown. If anything that should actually be good news if you are looking for a Weapon level Monochrome camera.

I think Jarred gave you the answer he could right now because that is what is "right now". You're just looking for a finite answer that likely hasn't been internally answered just yet. But again, take his reply as "there's something in the works".

 

[Zeb B]

The simple answer is likely nothing has been officially outlined or announced yet. At the moment 8K is going to get released in a small number according to Jarred's update a bit ago in December 2015/January 2016, a small batch at that.

Jarred's reply in this thread leads me to believe that there is an official plan for Epic Monochrome to occur likely in Weapon 6K and 8K (or just perhaps 8K). It just hasn't been hammered out yet. Yes, Scarlet-W Monochrome has been announced and has been shown. If anything that should actually be good news if you are looking for a Weapon level Monochrome camera.

I think Jarred gave you the answer he could right now because that is what is "right now". You're just looking for a finite answer that likely hasn't been internally answered just yet. But again, take his reply as "there's something in the works".

Respectfully Phil, it has been officially announced privately to me from my BS Rep: there is no path to 8K from Mono Dragon. Only an expensive upgrade to Weapon 6K with no stated 8K plan from there. Everything else you, Björn or I discuss is unnecessary crystal ball reading.

What I am asking for is a path from Mono Dragon to 8K. Real simple task since there is like 5 of these worldwide. It was Jim's flagship camera a year ago and now it's value has been reduced 75% by Scarlet Mono without a corresponding 8K path for the loyal Mono owners? . . . hard to believe but that is where my personal upgrade path it currently. Would like to have RED step up and take care of those who trusted them with a future in their $32K flagship product. No time like the present with Christmas just around the corner ;-)

 

[Elsie N]

Respectfully Phil, it has been officially announced privately to me from my BS Rep: there is no path to 8K from Mono Dragon. Only an expensive upgrade to Weapon 6K with no stated 8K plan from there. Everything else you, Björn or I discuss is unnecessary crystal ball reading.

What I am asking for is a path from Mono Dragon to 8K. Real simple task since there is like 5 of these worldwide. It was Jim's flagship camera a year ago and now it's value has been reduced 75% by Scarlet Mono without a corresponding 8K path for the loyal Mono owners? . . . hard to believe but that is where my personal upgrade path it currently. Would like to have RED step up and take care of those who trusted them with a future in their $32K flagship product. No time like the present with Christmas just around the corner ;-)

Is this accuracte? Only 5 cameras worldwide? I don't know what making a mono camera entails but if it is very costly, RED would surely have to know in advance the level of participaiton in an 8k Monochrome, I would think. Do they have to use a different 8k fabricated sensor? So many unknowns here to form an opinion.

 

[Brian Merlen]

I'm not sure the process but has no bayer filter so it's def a tweak

 

[Phil Holland]

Respectfully Phil, it has been officially announced privately to me from my BS Rep: there is no path to 8K from Mono Dragon. Only an expensive upgrade to Weapon 6K with no stated 8K plan from there. Everything else you, Björn or I discuss is unnecessary crystal ball reading.

What I am asking for is a path from Mono Dragon to 8K. Real simple task since there is like 5 of these worldwide. It was Jim's flagship camera a year ago and now it's value has been reduced 75% by Scarlet Mono without a corresponding 8K path for the loyal Mono owners? . . . hard to believe but that is where my personal upgrade path it currently. Would like to have RED step up and take care of those who trusted them with a future in their $32K flagship product. No time like the present with Christmas just around the corner ;-)

Right, and since Jarred replied to you in this thread and he is indeed the President of RED Digital Cinema (he and other higher ups set "policy") and not your Bomb Squad Rep (who doesn't have an answer about possible future products), his word is likely "the word" you are looking for.

What I'm pointing out is RED likely isn't ready to answer that question in totality yet, possibly because they haven't outlined Weapon 6K or 8K Monochrome paths just yet, but it does sound like one or both of those cameras will exist based on Jarred's "what he said" reply. Also, RED Scarlet-W 5K Monochrome has been announced and is not-yet-released, though it is coming in the next few months here.

Your question is very valid, not disrespecting that. I just don't think there's a full answer for you at this time. Especially with how difficult the 8K cameras are to manufacture. At least that's what I'm reading into that.

 

[Jarred Land]

Respectfully Phil, it has been officially announced privately to me from my BS Rep: there is no path to 8K from Mono Dragon. Only an expensive upgrade to Weapon 6K with no stated 8K plan from there. Everything else you, Björn or I discuss is unnecessary crystal ball reading.

What I am asking for is a path from Mono Dragon to 8K. Real simple task since there is like 5 of these worldwide. It was Jim's flagship camera a year ago and now it's value has been reduced 75% by Scarlet Mono without a corresponding 8K path for the loyal Mono owners? . . . hard to believe but that is where my personal upgrade path it currently. Would like to have RED step up and take care of those who trusted them with a future in their $32K flagship product. No time like the present with Christmas just around the corner ;-)

Zeb. What your rep told you is correct. There officially is no current upgrade path from Mono Dragon to 8k, because Weapon 8k Mono does not exist. Everything else you said is bullshit.

 

[Zeb B]

Zeb. What your rep told you is correct. There officially is no current upgrade path from Mono Dragon to 8k, because Weapon 8k Mono does not exist. Everything else you said is bullshit.

Thank you for your response. As someone who has invested $100K in RED related gear, it tells me everything I need to know going forward.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Thank you for your response. As someone who has invested $100K in RED related gear, it tells me everything I need to know going forward.

Zeb, Im sure your Monochrome will be upgradeable down the road. RED has never left anyone behind. It just may take a while for an 8k or 6K DSMC2 Monochrome to materialize.

Have faith! And happy holidays!

 

[Elsie N]

Thank you for your response. As someone who has invested $100K in RED related gear, it tells me everything I need to know going forward.

As someone who has (rough estimate) invested approximately $130,000 in RED cameras and accs since April, 2007, I feel you. Fortunately, I overcame the occasional indignation when things didn't go to suit me and refrained from cutting my nose off to spite my face, so-to-speak.

Besides, the $100,000 dollar club is not even Whale status but more like mid-level Grouper. '-)