Observations...

[Dr. Sassi]

…

There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of love circulating around here after the NAB announcements...

As you know, in statistics you cut the extreme 5% on both sides to get values that work for a good prediction. With that, I think it doesn't look that bad, if at all.

Quite frankly, feeling to have the top of the line sensor/camera, and then get woken up -- because things have moved on and the ticket for the next ride is more expensive: un-comfortable. But that is my problem, not RED's.

I want that they have success and prosper. I have to get better resources and don't do so much for free anymore.

 

[Scott Crawley]

You can't really call it the elephant in the room because a couple folks have called it out, but a rising concern is that Red may be moving away from their Indy customers. Savvy small business owners all know that the low rent (relative term) clients are the toughest to please and 3k for $3k was excised like a cancer. In light of the bitching every upgrade cycle who among us could honestly fault Red if they did that? It seems like a very real possibility. Will $50k become the new norm at Red? That is the question.

Jarred has asserted that Epic and Scarlet are not going anywhere for a while, but what will happen in three years or five years time? Will Indy Red aficionados be scrambling around like Cuban auto mechanics to keep our precious machines running or will there be a place for us at the table?

It is an itch that is going to need scratching, methinks.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Unlike most companies, RED has a somewhat intimate relationship with the customers. As such, it is often imperfect and constantly shifting and evolving. Sometimes feelings get hurt, sometimes "love is in the air." The very cool thing is that it constantly evolves and gets stronger. As Jim always said. "we are just trying to figure this out as we go." Who can't love that?

Like all great relationships built on passion, they are rarely predictable, always a little unstable, and always worthwhile.

 

[Brian Boyer]

When Redusers would get like this in the past, I privately called it "The Chorus of Grown Men Whining." I see you got the band back together.

Who doesn't want to pay less and get more? We're not idiots. I totally understand voicing concerns over RED's policies, practices and decisions. I've done this as well. It's very healthy for the company and the community. People often suggest things RED never thought of but are more than willing to consider and implement if at all possible.

Case in point, I don't know what made RED think Scarlet Dragon owners who couldn't swing the additional $9,500 to go Epic Dragon were somehow going to be able to afford Weapon any time soon, especially in an NAB-only timeframe.

Thankfully, they changed their minds and came up with a non-expiring $5K accessory credit good for anything in the store (minus the camera). Nice.

Having said that...

As a Scarlet Dragon owner who could not really afford the Scarlet MX or the Dragon upgrade (I bought them anyway), let alone an Epic Dragon, I have ZERO sympathy for Epic Dragon owners who can't afford Weapon. Now you know how Scarlet owners feel.

"Keep this, lose that, add this, make it out of this and make it cheaper by $10K and I'll buy it." WTF? Epic owners would've shit all over Scarlet owners for making such demands.

The Epic/Scarlet body style is not perfect and neither is the Dragon sensor. Some people are justifying their complaints about Weapon pricing by saying it's what Epic Dragon should've been all along, implying they're being penalized for RED's missteps.

"If you had just made it that way in the first place you wouldn't have to charge me so much."

Why don't I tell Chevy I'm only paying the 1969 Camaro price for their 2016 model because that's the car it should've been from the get-go.

Enjoy your Epic Dragon. If you don't like it, you shouldn't have bought that mofo. I'm convinced many RED owners would've been better off with a Sony, Canon or Panasonic based on what they need for their work. That's not RED's fault.

Yes, Dragon has it's limitations and workarounds. Do you think every Indy or F1 winner was driving a perfect car at the time?

At this point, if you're not producing images from your Dragon that are among the best you've ever coaxed from a digital cinema camera, you suck.

I expect RED to do what's reasonable and fair. Beyond that, if you can't afford Weapon right now, that's too effing bad.

 

[Elsie N]

You can't really call it the elephant in the room because a couple folks have called it out, but a rising concern is that Red may be moving away from their Indy customers. Savvy small business owners all know that the low rent (relative term) clients are the toughest to please and 3k for $3k was excised like a cancer. In light of the bitching every upgrade cycle who among us could honestly fault Red if they did that? That notion makes it a very real possibility I think. Will $50k become the new norm at Red? That is the question.

Jarred has asserted that Epic and Scarlet are not going anywhere for a while, but what will happen in three years or five years time? Will Indy Red aficionados be scrambling around like Cuban auto mechanics to keep our precious machines running or will there be a place for us at the table?

It is an itch that is going to need scratching, methinks.

Scott, your post triggered a thought... Isn't it remarkable that there are few (if any) references to the Arri cameras in posts and tons of references to the Blackmagic ones. I take from that the probability that RED has been successful in their targeting of the ARRI niche and may have inadvertently lost track of the needs of Indie crowd.

Maybe they correct that at some time later on, but for now I think that is what people are reacting to.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Scott, your post triggered a thought... Isn't it remarkable that there are few (if any) references to the Arri cameras in posts and tons of references to the Blackmagic ones. I take from that the probability that RED has been successful in their targeting of the ARRI niche and may have inadvertently lost track of the needs of Indie crowd.

Maybe they correct that at some time later on, but for now I think that is what people are reacting to.

They are offering three tiers of cameras - Scarlet, Epic, and Weapon. How are they abandoning the indie crowd? Many, myself included can't even take full advantage of the entry level camera in their lineup. I don't get it. If they announced that Scarlet and Epic were dead and Weapon was the only option going forward, I would understand the feeling of abandonment but I'm still trying to grasp why Scarlet Dragon and Epic Dragon are not valid indie cameras. Is it because Blackamgic has a $5000 4.6K camera? Is it because people are concerned that no one will want to rent their Epic or Scarlet? I have heard some compelling arguments. I'm trying to see this from both sides.

 

[Dunkan Wolf]

Amen.

It is amazing that ARRI charges $68K for an ALEXA Mini (what it costs to kit it into working order) and everyone thanks them. No credit to back to customers who bought ALEXA Plus or ALEXA whatever. Because there is no expectation that ARRI would ever do that. RED has been OVERLY generous.

As a parent ... it's what we call spoiling your kids. And it's tough ... because as a parent you WANT to give your kids EVERYTHING - but that rarely is the best thing for them. Sometimes you gotta just say "NO" and just tune out the tears.

Let's just hope they made the right decision... it's Red who will be on the receiving end of shit goes down. Customers will simply flock to another brand.
They are already losing tons of market share to ARRIs cameras. especially now with the Mini, 65 and Amira with 4K enabled.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I am of the "indie" crowd and I have never felt more embraced. The world of indies moves ahead, too. Otherwise, there is always 16mm film.

 

[Scott Crawley]

They are offering three tiers of cameras - Scarlet, Epic, and Weapon. How are they abandoning the indie crowd? Many, myself included can't even take full advantage of the entry level camera in their lineup. I don't get it. If they announced that Scarlet and Epic were dead and Weapon was the only option going forward, I would understand the feeling of abandonment but I'm still trying to grasp why Scarlet Dragon and Epic Dragon are not valid indie cameras. Is it because Blackamgic has a $5000 4.6K camera? Is it because people are concerned that no one will want to rent their Epic or Scarlet? I have heard some compelling arguments. I'm trying to see this from both sides.

I don't know about Elsie, but my suggestion is that there is a rising fear that the $20k entry point might not be around in five years, not that indies have already been abandoned. Please don't characterize it that way. I wouldn't say that at all and would hate for that idea to catch on.

 

[Elsie N]

They are offering three tiers of cameras - Scarlet, Epic, and Weapon. How are they abandoning the indie crowd? Many, myself included can't even take full advantage of the entry level camera in their lineup. I don't get it. If they announced that Scarlet and Epic were dead and Weapon was the only option going forward, I would understand the feeling of abandonment but I'm still trying to grasp why Scarlet Dragon and Epic Dragon are not valid indie cameras. Is it because Blackamgic has a $5000 4.6K camera? Is it because people are concerned that no one will want to rent their Epic or Scarlet? I have heard some compelling arguments. I'm trying to see this from both sides.

Steve, of course the Scarlet and EpicX/Dragon are excellent Indie cameras... but what I'm referring to is THIS upgrade. There really isn't an upgrade I've seen so far that embraces the financial condition of the majority of the Indie crowd (according to the number of complainants.)

We (but maybe not you '-) aren't satisfied with 6k being "good enough." '-)

 

[Scott Crawley]

I am of the "indie" crowd and I have never felt more embraced. The world of indies moves ahead, too. Otherwise, there is always 16mm film.

It's all good. I just want to know If I should start hoarding Scarlet bodies soon, that's all. ;-)

 

[Scott Crawley]

Steve, of course the Scarlet and EpicX/Dragon are excellent Indie cameras... but what I'm referring to is THIS upgrade. There really isn't an upgrade I've seen so far that embraces the financial condition of the majority of the Indie crowd (according to the number of complainants.)

We (but maybe not you '-) aren't satisfied with 6k being "good enough." '-)

Dude, you can't expect Red to subsidize a move from a $15k camera to a $50k camera to the tune of 2/3 retail value. That's nuckin' futz.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Let's just hope they made the right decision... it's Red who will be on the receiving end of shit goes down. Customers will simply flock to another brand.
They are already losing tons of market share to ARRIs cameras. especially now with the Mini, 65 and Amira with 4K enabled.

Hmmm... not so sure about losing tons of market share to ARRI here. There is a large segment of the market that flocks to ARRI, regardless of what RED, Sony, et. all do or don't do. People who are choosing an Alexa Mini, 65, or any model for that matter, over a Weapon are not doing so in response to pricing or in relation to the majority of backlash we're seeing in regards to RED's Weapon program.

On the contrary, I think we're going to see segments of the user base moving toward Canon, Panasonic and BMD as those offerings keep increasing in capability at the lower sub-EPIC / Scarlet price points. IMO, that lower segment of the market is getting more crowded all the time and I'm thinking RED has bowed out. Not that they have ever ventured there... Dabbled in concept, yes, but not traveled.

 

[Brian Boyer]

I think RED's history of eventually killing a body style when a new one is released has people skittish about how long Epic/Scarlet will be around now that Weapon is here.

Although there was some overlap with R1MX and Epic/Scarlet (probably due to existing inventory), there's never been a plan to keep selling the old body for an extended period of time while a new and improved body style exists above it.

This is unfamiliar territory for us and RED. I think most people expect the Weapon body to eventually be the only one. The question is whether that's going to happen 2-3 years from now or 6 months from now?

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Hmmm... not so sure about losing tons of market share to ARRI here. There is a large segment of the market that flocks to ARRI, regardless of what RED, Sony, et. all do or don't do. People who are choosing an Alexa Mini, 65, or any model for that matter, over a Weapon are not doing so in response to pricing or in relation to the majority of backlash we're seeing in regards to RED's Weapon program.

On the contrary, I think we're going to see segments of the user base moving toward Canon, Panasonic and BMD as those offerings keep increasing in capability at the lower sub-EPIC / Scarlet price points. IMO, that lower segment of the market is getting more crowded all the time and I'm thinking RED has bowed out. Not that they have ever ventured there... Dabbled in concept, yes, but not traveled.

As technology lowers the barrier of entry - the middle falls away. This is repeated over and over through history. The bottom and the top get exciting - the middle goes away. The bottom - in cameras - is WAY more crowded than the top. You can buy a Samsung NX1 for $1300 and shoot better 4K than ANY BlackMagic camera. And the game at the bottom is about mass quantity, quality compromises and manufacturing with under-age, poorly treated labor in China and other places.

RED is amazing at the hard / impossible stuff. They actually suck at the easy stuff. I'm thrilled they are focused on the top. There's plenty options on the bottom and the middle is falling into the bottom (FS7, etc.)

 

[Scott Crawley]

I think RED's history of eventually killing a body style when a new one is released has people skittish about how long Epic/Scarlet will be around now that Weapon is here.

Although there was some overlap with R1MX and Epic/Scarlet (probably due to existing inventory), there's never been a plan to keep selling the old body for an extended period of time while a new and improved body style exists above it.

This is unfamiliar territory for us and RED. I think most people expect the Weapon body to eventually be the only one. The question is whether that's going to happen 2-3 years from now or 6 months from now?

Jarred stated that Epic/Scarlet weren't going to go anywhere "any time soon". FWIW

 

[Mat_G]

Isn't it remarkable that there are few (if any) references to the Arri cameras in posts and tons of references to the Blackmagic ones. I take from that the probability that RED has been successful in their targeting of the ARRI niche and may have inadvertently lost track of the needs of Indie crowd.

I don't know where I fit in. But I am undecided on the Weapon upgrade at the moment. It all depends on the "its just business" PDF that is coming from Red with all the facts so we can all make our respective upgrade decisions.

Do I double down on Red Weapon and continue to rent Arri's as needed (which is quite often due to producer requests, because of the "hey I want the better skintones")

Or bypass this upgrade cycle and instead put my hard earned dollars towards an Amira or Mini and diversify today and have both a Epic Dragon and Arri at my disposal?

I am tired of "fighting the tide" as Red has not done enough on the skintone/color science PR/Marketing front. And again, its never been about pixels or rez, but the "skintones & color science" which I personally find equally pleasing on both Red Dragon and Arri.

Producers and clients get what they ask for. Saying it's "your" job to sell the right camera for the job can only go so far before it comes across as "oh, this person is difficult to work with". Go with the flow I say... as the camera is such a tiny (but important) part of the process.

If Red would step up the "Skin Tone / Color Science" marketing/PR effort as much as they emphasize resolution, that would help soooooo much.

Why can't Red fight 2 battles (Red kicks ass in both resolution and color science messaging) at the same time?

Just a humble opinion from someone who is fairly new to the Red community and was HIGHLY pumped about Weapon then HIGHLY confused (not about price) but this entire upgrade confusion.

 

[Brian Boyer]

Jarred stated that Epic/Scarlet weren't going to go anywhere "any time soon". FWIW

I know that's what he said. I'm saying I think people have a hard time knowing what "any time soon" means and believing it's as long as they'd like/need it to be to make sticking with Epic/Scarlet financially viable.

 

[Elsie N]

Dude, you can't expect Red to subsidize a move from a $15k camera to a $50k camera to the tune of 2/3 retail value. That's nuckin' futz.

Scott, you are not only putting words in my mouth but numbers too.

As for expectations, I have none. As for what I would like to see?... I would like to see the Mag Weapon have the same internals as the CF Weapon so it would be upgradeable to 8k after the CF Weapons are finished upgrading. Don't sell me a new form factor with soon to be recycled innards. I understand they are trying to make the CF Weapons more attractive due in all probability, a higher markup.

I don't think they really need to do that. Anyone (including me) who can afford to go CF Weapon will do that for the "early adopter" status. This is where I think they have moved toward the more affluent customer and if what is being floated around be true, the less affluent will have to trade in their Mag Weapons (at a depreciated price if what we see as dragon trade-ins remain the standard) either for a CF Weapon... or at least for new boards and possibly double the price for an 8k sensor.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

If Red would step up the "Skin Tone / Color Science" marketing/PR effort as much as they emphasize resolution, that would help soooooo much.

This is true. Many still assume skin tones are better on ALEXA because they were better for a long time. Maybe the next time RED updates the color science - and/or the Weapon hits the streets - they should do some focused PR/marketing to chisel away at that perception.