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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Observations...

Elsie N said:
Scott, you are not only putting words in my mouth but numbers too.

As for expectations, I have none. As for what I would like to see?... I would like to see the Mag Weapon have the same internals as the CF Weapon so it would be upgradeable to 8k after the CF Weapons are finished upgrading. Don't sell me a new form factor with soon to be recycled innards. I understand they are trying to make the CF Weapons more attractive due in all probability, a higher markup.

I don't think they really need to do that. Anyone (including me) who can afford to go CF Weapon will do that for the "early adopter" status. This is where I think they have moved toward the more affluent customer and if what is being floated around be true, the less affluent will have to trade in their Mag Weapons (at a depreciated price if what we see as dragon trade-ins remain the standard) either for a CF Weapon... or at least for new boards and possibly double the price for an 8k sensor.
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I wasn't doing any real math, I was just making a point. Weapon is a step up and the cost of the upgrade reflects that. It is all I suggest.

If I was too strident I apologize. The current offer is what $2500 + $5000 total for the trade? I understand that some folks react to that kind of data on the open market differently, but that by no means sets the secondary market value, and that seems to be part of the complaint. I don't think it is valid, and that was not part of my point to you but I digress.


Brian Boyer said:
I know that's what he said. I'm saying I think people have a hard time knowing what "any time soon" means and believing it's as long as they'd like/need it to be to make sticking with Epic/Scarlet financially viable.
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Gotcha. My take is that six months is OK, but going forward a cycle is anybody's guess. That is the itchy bit. :-)
 
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Scott Crawley said:
I wasn't doing any real math, I was just making a point. Weapon is a step up and the cost of the upgrade reflects that. It is all I suggest.

If I was too strident I apologize. The current offer is what $2500 + $5000 total for the trade? I understand that some folks react to that kind of data on the open market differently, but that by no means sets the secondary market value, and that seems to be part of the complaint. I don't think it is valid, and that was not part of my point to you but I digress.
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No apoligy necessary. The misunderstanding of my position was actually useful as my response gave me the opportunity to better clarify my stance.
 
Mark L. Pederson said:
As technology lowers the barrier of entry - the middle falls away. This is repeated over and over through history. The bottom and the top get exciting - the middle goes away. The bottom - in cameras - is WAY more crowded than the top. You can buy a Samsung NX1 for $1300 and shoot better 4K than ANY BlackMagic camera. And the game at the bottom is about mass quantity, quality compromises and manufacturing with under-age, poorly treated labor in China and other places.

RED is amazing at the hard / impossible stuff. They actually suck at the easy stuff. I'm thrilled they are focused on the top. There's plenty options on the bottom and the middle is falling into the bottom (FS7, etc.)
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YIKES! I have been shown the future... probably mine.
 
Gavin Greenwalt said:
It's certainly more about the future than the present. At present I am perfectly happy with my Epic Dragon. If this was a regular company I would simply sell my Epic when a new product warranted the expenditure so you can pick and choose when it's best to sell and buy new. Maybe that would be a RED maybe that would be something else, but RED is chose to do things differently. RED is all about the upgrades and upgrades historically have required you to stay "up-to-date" to get the next upgrade so I'm currently presuming that while Weapon Magnesium is a camera I don't really want, I will have to buy it in some way shape or form some day to get the camera I actually do want (new sensor and capabilities). Epic-MX owners aren't being offered an upgrade path to Weapon, so that offers a precedent for being abandoned. REDOne customers weren't offered an upgrade path to Epic-Dragon so that's another precedent. At no point in time has RED let you sit-out an upgrade. Why would they suddenly do that with Weapon? At the same time Epic-MX -> Epic Dragon to me offered a lot of value. The RED One to Epic was a grotesquely good deal and Epic offered a substantial feature bump with a body a fraction of the size of REDOne. Epic Dragon to Weapon Dragon doesn't offer me a lot of value especially at price double that of historical RED upgrades. The sensor is pretty much the same. The framerates are pretty much the same. The size and weight of a kitted camera is pretty much the same. $20k for... ProRes? That's an expensive ProRes recorder. But is it an Expensive ProRes recorder I need to buy or resign myself to just not being on the upgrade dependency chain? Will I need to spend $20k on the next upgrade as well or is this a one-time pain point? Historically speaking if I wasn't a broke college student with massive student loans when the REDOne launched I could easily afford and easily justify every single upgrade up to RED Epic Dragon. Now I not only can't justify the expense... but I'm not even convinced that Weapon in of itself for me is worth very much as an upgrade.

That's why I as a REDUser am less interested in a discount on something I'm not really sure I want than I am in reassurance that I don't have to love Weapon, I don't have to want to buy Weapon--and in the future there'll be something for me. That costs RED nothing financially.



And if that's the case (That RED doesn't want me as a customer anymore) I want them to say so outright and not pretend that they still want my money. I'll stop buying REDMags and accessories and treat my Epic like a really nice but EOL camera. I'll still rent REDs and I'll go back to being an active REDUser not a REDOwner. It would be however pretty disappointing to see RED go from rogue disruptive company to a high-end run of the mill competitor on the premium end. Remember this?
redscarlet2.JPG


That chart blew up the industry. Now we're talking about $70k for full frame. Focusing on the top might make good business sense for RED but it's a very different RED than the one a lot of people got excited for.
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Again, this is a very articulate and compelling view. I do not want to come across as insensitive to those who I have been on this RED ownership journey with me for years now. I think it might simply come down to individual circumstances. I was in that first crop of RED owners back in 2007. The deal RED offered to go from R1 to Epic was almost a no brainer. I wanted it. And I could make the money part happen. But I didn't go for it because it didn't fit my plans moving forward. I knew I was taking a risk because I was hopping off the upgrade trail if I skipped it. With every subsequent upgrade including this one to Weapon I wonder to myself, did I make the right move to jump off when I did? And every time I feel like I did. If I want an Epic Dragon for a shoot I have options to get one. Same will go for the Weapon. That's me, that's my situation. I understand many of you are in a different situation where you are invested deeply into the RED ecosystem and part of your livelihood may depend on keeping up to date and that this is a big deal. I don't want to minimize that at all. And from RED's POV I'm sure trying to keep everyone happy, given all of the different circumstances must be quite the challenge.
 
Mark L. Pederson said:
RED is amazing at the hard / impossible stuff. They actually suck at the easy stuff. I'm thrilled they are focused on the top. There's plenty options on the bottom and the middle is falling into the bottom (FS7, etc.)
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That is great and all, but the top needn't be all they do and it needn't be $50k+ to play. Red was the original champion of this idea and they proved it.

I don't want to be pushed back down into the bottom. I love it here.
 
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Elsie N said:
Steve, of course the Scarlet and EpicX/Dragon are excellent Indie cameras... but what I'm referring to is THIS upgrade. There really isn't an upgrade I've seen so far that embraces the financial condition of the majority of the Indie crowd (according to the number of complainants.)

We (but maybe not you '-) aren't satisfied with 6k being "good enough." '-)
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See above response to Gavin. I do understand where you are coming from.

As far as 6K not being good enough, in my personal case is not going to be a problem. The fact is that I have worked with DPs and filmmakers who have done more with a 2.8K camera than I will EVER be able to do with a 6K, 8K, or 24K camera. It might seem like I'm trashing myself by saying that but in fact, it's just recognizing that sometimes technology isn't the limiting factor. I've just had the privilege of working with people who have a vast amount of talent, knowledge and experience that I will be hard pressed to match. That's not to say I don't recognize that improvements in camera technology will be important, but for me and my place in the world, I think 6K with good IQ would be more than enough for my skill set. But many of you are far more talented and I have no doubt will take advantage of the technology.
 
Steve Sherrick said:
But many of you are far more talented and I have no doubt will take advantage of the technology.
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I directed a spot where we shot 5k... for 720p. And we had to use up all of the blow-up capability of 5k just to get to 720p. It was by far the easiest way to achieve what we were trying to shoot and it was very carefully choreographed so that we could even hit 720p. I even had to paint in edges of the frame in a few places because we had to shoot a little extra zoomed in to keep the 720p sections. But trying to achieve the camera move and zoom physically would have been next to impossible. I worked another commercial where I had them shoot it entirely on its side in order to give us enough room to pan and scan vertically between plates. So even at 5k that worked out to only about 2.5k for 1920 and the image was a little less oversampled than I would have liked. So if we do get to a point where TV starts broadcasting UHD I'll need an improved camera to do say 8k vertical for a 4k horizontal deliverable.
 
Steve Sherrick said:
See above response to Gavin. I do understand where you are coming from.

As far as 6K not being good enough, in my personal case is not going to be a problem. The fact is that I have worked with DPs and filmmakers who have done more with a 2.8K camera than I will EVER be able to do with a 6K, 8K, or 24K camera. It might seem like I'm trashing myself by saying that but in fact, it's just recognizing that sometimes technology isn't the limiting factor. I've just had the privilege of working with people who have a vast amount of talent, knowledge and experience that I will be hard pressed to match. That's not to say I don't recognize that improvements in camera technology will be important, but for me and my place in the world, I think 6K with good IQ would be more than enough for my skill set. But many of you are far more talented and I have no doubt will take advantage of the technology.
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Heh, I see that as just the opposite... I consider myself less talented as a shooter, and look to technology to give my work that something extra to hopefully make it be the whack a mole that pops up above the thousands and thousands of differing content that presents itself constantly. OUTSTANDING content is king... if someone sees it.

But in regard to this upgrade, I think Gavin said it best when he noted that if we skip an upgrade, that probably means we will have to pay dearly to get back on for the upgrade after the one we skip.

Still, I posted this early on when I saw the pricing for the RED upgrades.

Elsie N said:
I see it as RED having grown further and faster as a company than I have as a customer.

But I personally don't expect them to cripple themselves technologically to remain relevant to me. And while I helped them get to their lofty status, still, it falls upon me to catch up.
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Mark L. Pederson said:
As technology lowers the barrier of entry - the middle falls away. This is repeated over and over through history. The bottom and the top get exciting - the middle goes away. The bottom - in cameras - is WAY more crowded than the top. You can buy a Samsung NX1 for $1300 and shoot better 4K than ANY BlackMagic camera. And the game at the bottom is about mass quantity, quality compromises and manufacturing with under-age, poorly treated labor in China and other places.

RED is amazing at the hard / impossible stuff. They actually suck at the easy stuff. I'm thrilled they are focused on the top. There's plenty options on the bottom and the middle is falling into the bottom (FS7, etc.)
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Hmm. Interesting point. So I guess EPIC/SCARLET truly are EOL, but no one's about to say that today. EPIC/SCARLET are middle (debatably) and not high-end (ARRI, Weapon), and they are certainly not low-end.

I guess, from what Jarred said about the ton of orders they got already for the 8K etc., it seems RED is set to move to the high-end, and maybe even get to a place where they only RENT cameras, and never sell them.

All valid possibilities. I completely agree RED is a business. The feedback that I have to offer is around finding a sweet spot in the product lineup that may not exactly have been found yet, where atleast 75% of your current customers are excited about the future roadmap of the company's product line and the current offerings.

Its truly a wait-and-see time to see where RED wants to go. More and more, it seems they are moving towards conventional thinking. Higher priced cameras, premium client base, etc. All good there.

But if that's true, I for one, misunderstood what Jannard's vision promised. I was expecting a revolution.

And oh, just because I may have critique to offer, doesn't mean I think RED is a scam. I think RED is AMAZING! I don't think I need to defend RED's achievements, they are there for ALL to see. These critiques are more like notes I get on my screenplays. I welcome those notes, but I also know which notes to take in, which ones to reject. But I love that I get notes!

If RED doesn't want notes, then all Jarred has to do is say that and I know I won't put in the time and effort to think about all things RED. But everything Jim and Jarred have said so far is that they WANT feedback.

Only fools would expect they'll take everything said here to heart. I'm pretty confident they can sift through it all and pick out value. They are both plenty smart! In case ya'll didn't know… ;)

edit:
Mark: One thing your post fails to recognize is that the "top end" of today is the "bottom" of tomorrow. In other words, its a constantly rising standard.
 
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Nikhil Kamkolkar said:
But if that's true, I for one, misunderstood what Jannard's vision promised. I was expecting a revolution.
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They delivered revolution... But will they continue to support the partisans, the militias?

The effects of the disruption are here and will not be undone. We all will continue to benefit from that and I love it, but I do not let them off the hook so easily. I'll be the ugly date they picked up at the bar who won't stop calling. ;-)
 
Jarred Land said:
Dont worry we are not abandoning the "lower" end and just focusing on the super high end. Truth be told the Scarlet Dragon is actually a better camera than almost all high end cameras if you actually compare the specs. And there is definitely a future for Scarlet Dragon... you just don't know about it yet and it is not anywhere near. But Weapon isn't in Scarlet territory.. it never was intended to be a direct jump for most Scarlet owners. Remember, Weapon sits above Epic. And for the fortunate Scarlet owners that can do the jump.... we give you the option.

The requests for a Weapon to to have the price of a Scarlet is an unreasonable expectation. For Weapon we had to invent alot of new technology to make it possible. Remember we design our own ASICS, Sensors, Mechanicals etc. And that is not cheap. It is easy to just take machine vision sensors and off the shelf FPGAs and make an inexpensive camera. But they usually fall short. That of course getting better as the years go on... But so are we.

I believe it is some existing Epic customers that are in a position of contemplation. Part of that is from the confusion of the credits and options and some don't realize that we are giving you more than $10k off in credits or accessories, plus the value of your trade-in. You are actually paying somewhere around $12k all things considered to do the upgrade to MG Weapon depending on what you are going from. And that is a killer deal.

The Weapon fills a hole for the best of the best. It really is incredible. Even if you take away the 8K sensor, the improvements we have made to the form factor, the internal processing, ProRes, etc.. is a huge achievement. Our engineers solved alot of "impossibles" along the way. the 3rd party module support is finally going to make use of the modular vision. The Weapon has done extremely well this week with the customers it was made for. Wouldn't change anything about it.

And yes Mark that was a great analogy. We probably do spoil our customers. But our customers also spoil us...
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Great to hear. This should have been on page 1, or made into a separate post altogether (since this and posts like it are a bit scattered everywhere right now). I think it'll calm the storm a bit.
 
Good to know the weapon has hit it's intended target and its future looks good, congrats on that.

Just wanted to say too, for me anyway, one of the top highlights of all these NAB related announcements was hearing that you guys are still having a blast working on all these developments. Is nice to know you're still having fun pushing the limits of what's actually possible. Thanks for sticking with it and continuing to do what needs to be done to keep things moving forward.
 
Jarred Land said:
This would never happen.. but your post did wake me up and made me realize the very unrealistic expectations that people put on us, and reminded me even if we did accommodate something down in AL people would just ask for more more more... this was a good reflection of that.

It is a business folks...
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It wasn't expectations. But I know where I just spoke too much.
I guess I'll rather shut the fuck up now and crawl back to where I came from before I break more stuff.
 
What the majority of people fail to realize and I haven't seen it mentioned once (forgive me if it has been), but the increase in price compared to the last jumps will indeed help RED finance future innovations to keep pushing the envelope, which I plan on being a part of. I saw my buddy price out his Alexa Mini kit he ordered recently and it was every bit of $68K. All in I'll be $57K for MG Weapon upgrading since Epic-M. Still 11 grand cheaper than a mini and 1.5lbs lighter for taking to the sky. Cannot wait to get my hands on the weapon...
 
"8. Uprezzing not spoken here... please do not believe that uprezzing a 2.8K sensor to 4K in camera is a reasonable option. It isn't. It is as close to fraud as it gets."

Haha, wonder who that was directed at...
 
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