Not upgrading to Weapon

[Elsie N]

Intended to sell one of my Dragons and apply that to an 8k Weapon upgrade.

But the more I thought about it the more I realized how big a deal it is for me to have two paid-for cameras. Kudos to those who get the 8k and create pixel envy within the rest of us.

And someday I'll join them... but not today.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Please explain to me why you are considering it a Rolls Royce and and epic Dragon a BMW as specs are 95% the same? Look at the spec pages on RED.com all but the prores capability is the same, and for 4500 as opposed to 20k+ you can make all the prores you like...
.I liken it to an epic in a tuxedo if you will...
A 356 porcshe when you look under the hood its a VW engine...sure looks good but at the finish line you'll still be next to the VW beetle.

Because a Rolls Royce is about LUXURY. And Weapon is a LUXURY you can chose to afford, or not.

Yes the sensor is the same, but for FEATURES/TV SHOWS/RENTAL houses...it has ADDITIONAL FEATURES they may want (but owner ops may not care about as much).

1) PRORES - upto 60/120fps (which NO EXTERNAL RECORDER CAN DO with a RED). Your SDI out the back can't DO SLOW MO.
2) 3D LUTS - for higher end workflows, this is a must (again, owner ops won't necessarily care, but feature and broadcast TV will).
3) Extra 1/2 stop on LOW END (so slightly better image)
4) EASIER TO USE - auto callibration, auto OLPF, way better modules, cableless, side panel, etc, etc
5) LIGHTER (magnesium and carbon)
6) SMALLER
7) LOWER COMPRESSION - those rates aren't confirmed yet, but Carbon's 50% additional data speeds almost assure it of a compression boost.
8) WIFI
9) The new body will almost surely make BETTER USE of the NEXT SENSOR
10) Upgradeable to VISTA
11) UNCONFIRMED - no Gate Flare?
12) UNCONFIRMED - no CMOS smear?

Again, these are luxuries. Like heated leather seats, a moon roof, Bluetooth, better suspension, etc, etc.

The engine is the same. But the ride is not.

Again - this is not a LATERAL shift. Its a VERTICAL ONE. Weapon is RED's answer to the ALEXA XT. Its designed for feature/broadcast/high end rentals. It's "aimed" at ARRI.

RED isn't leaving owner ops behind. They're just opening up a new market - "aimed" at STUDIOS.

Jarred has confirmed ALL Dragon cams are eligible for the next Sensor. This is what I found MOST comforting.

We are a FLEET of cameras now. Not a SINGLE cam (with two tiers).

If ProRes is really that much of a concern why not just get a recorder for a Dragon that acts as a monitor as well? Seems like a no brainer to me... Sure it's nice that it's all in one body but you can kind of kill two birds with one stone.

NO. YOU CAN'T. A prores recorder can't and never will be able to do SLOW MO. The BNC signal out the back is always real time, not SLOW MO.

That's why the MG 60fps and CF 120fps is such a big deal. You can TRULY dual record Prores for REAL. For those that need it, its a BIG DEAL.

Again, and I agree, for many it's not something worth upgrading to.

But for those that NEED IT, it's an amazing new option.

OPTIONS ARE GOOD. STASIS IS BAD.

 

[Daniel Stilling]

Am I the only one that is really disappointed with the lack of 4K ProRes?
all the talk about 2K not being good enough (which I agree) and then the ProRes flavors are only 2K? What gives?

 

[Gunleik Groven]

For larger shows still doing offline/online edit (and you'd be surprised...) the on-board prores recording is a big boon. And last I checked there was so much stuff attached to a camera on set, that just the luxury of throwing out an additional cable/piece of gear is worth a lot to many productions. (or 1st ACs, DoPs etc etc etc.

I see a lot of added robustness in the Weapon designs, both the physical and in the system.
For those where robustness and workflow-flexibility is the main beef (and again you would maybe be surprised...) THOSE are key selling points.

On top of that, it is great to know that the image is 1st tier, too...

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Am I the only one that is really disappointed with the lack of 4K ProRes?
all the talk about 2K not being good enough (which I agree) and then the ProRes flavors are only 2K? What gives?

I can see why they chose 2k, but the option to record prores 4k is a bragging-right I think it would be smart to open for.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Am I the only one that is really disappointed with the lack of 4K ProRes?
all the talk about 2K not being good enough (which I agree) and then the ProRes flavors are only 2K? What gives?

Prores is just for editorial. Acquisition format is R3D. You cut your show in PRORES. And relink to R3D's for final grade.

Though as Phil has hinted, I wonder if 4K prores is on horizon? Maybe at smaller FPS? (Say 4K 60fps on Carbon).

Firmware upgrades may well reveal many new abilities in Weapon...

 

[Phil Holland]

Prores is just for editorial. Acquisition format is R3D. You cut your show in PRORES. And relink to R3D's for final grade.

Though as Phil has hinted, I wonder if 4K prores is on horizon? Maybe at smaller FPS? (Say 4K 60fps on Carbon).

Firmware upgrades may well reveal many new abilities in Weapon...

Based on how many people have told me about this particular "feature want" I know everybody has heard about it at RED.

Weapon man. Let's see what's possible

 

[Jon Chema]

I refuse to invest money in something before I even know the solid specs. Especially for $17.5k+ more. Its several grand more for all the accessories that will need to be replaced. I myself have over $5,000 in media alone. As many of noted- the improvements at this point are minuscule. From what I see the ergonomics are the biggest improvement. Pro-Res? Alexa had that years ago. Auto black shade? Most cameras have this anyways and should IMO. Quieter fans? Dragon is already pretty darn quiet. Scratch track? Don't care. 50% improvement on data read/write? Cool but worth $17.5k?? And putting a sense of urgency on upgrading by baiting us with a better trade in credit NAB week only? C'mon!! Why penalize faithful customers? I am NOT sold. Someone please convince me otherwise...

 

[luigivaltulini]

Am I the only one that is really disappointed with the lack of 4K ProRes?
all the talk about 2K not being good enough (which I agree) and then the ProRes flavors are only 2K? What gives?

SAme Here...
I need this too.
Also have an option only ProRes and RAW only, not both together.

 

[Phil Holland]

SAme Here...
I need this too.
Also have an option only ProRes and RAW only, not both together.

Jarred posted this tonight after I bugged him about this particular topic

OK Phil... 2K ProRes Only recording granted.. It is dumb.. and we will shake a stick at you if we catch you doing it.. but we realize sometimes our customers don't get to make those kind of decisions... producers do. As long as you promise to shake a stick at them when they ask to throw away the good master, then we will give you that one.

4K ProRes is not an impossibility. Don't take that as a "we can do it", but it is not "impossible" on the Carbon Weapon.

Assume you are getting 2K ProRes.... make your purchase decisions based off of that.

I will get back to you on that well before it is time for you to pay to take delivery. We have some pretty damn good engineers.

 

[Sergio Perez]

Jarred posted this tonight after I bugged him about this particular topic

4K prores actually would be invaluable for what I do: a racing highlights show to be edited, displayed and broadcasted in literally hours at the end of its 3 days of capture- very specific, I know. What we do right now is get everything raw, convert everything to prores 2K due to time and workflow rendering limitations overnight, edit them with the final day shots being in its native R3d format which bring down the editing speed of our system, and keep the 6K, 5K, 3K super slow-motion shots masters for future high end TVC use. If we had 4K internal recording, it would save us the downconversion time in post. It is a situation that every single minute counts. I think for certain ENG, Broadcast situations were time is of outmost importance, this allowing 4K prores would make the system much, much more versatile. Would be a very good move for RED to allow this, hopefully also on the Magnesium body.

 

[Brian Boyer]

And putting a sense of urgency on upgrading by baiting us with a better trade in credit NAB week only? C'mon!! Why penalize faithful customers?

From Jarred:

Your $5000 accessory credit will remain until you are ready to upgrade to Weapon, and is not limited to NAB week.

Optionally, if you wish to purchase Weapon new ( not upgrade your camera ) you will receive the $5000 accessory credit, but only if you purchase the new Weapon during NAB.

Absolutely... The purpose of the credit is to make the transition from your Epic / Scarlet body to the new Weapon body as painless as possible since there are some new accessories, and can be applied to media, handles, modules, monitors, etc. It gets put into your account to spend on whatever you want.

 

[shashbugu]

Jarred posted this tonight after I bugged him about this particular topic

This is why we love Jarred. That said, Scaled 2k proves from 6k can always be TerraneXed into very sharp UHD.

 

[Christophe Deshoux]

Yes Ivan, your comment is right!
I am convinced that many people hitherto loyal to RED, like us, for the first time, are not going to follow the path of evolution. The reasons are many already.
The Dragon (Epic or Scarlet) is a historical chapter. For the rest I think Weapon starts something else ... actually more to rental companies, more to the world of ARRI ... and less to independent, by whom all began ... until now.
But I remain optimistic and still faithful and passionate, always excited to use my camera again for another shoot.
Christophe


(…with Red Scarlet Dragon - Canon L series PL conv)

 

[Adam Palmer]

Am I the only one that is really disappointed with the lack of 4K ProRes?
all the talk about 2K not being good enough (which I agree) and then the ProRes flavors are only 2K? What gives?

Redcode is one of REDs most important features, so internal 4K Prores (especially in the lower tier models) would be a bad move on their part. Although they wouldn't like to admit it, for most people, Prores is a good option a lot of the time. If people started shooting Prores for most of their stuff it would make it harder for them to justify the cost of REDMags/REDRocket. Including Prores in their premium model doesn't really affect this, as people forking out for the Weapon will undoubtably have the funds to buy the workstation/media needed to process 4k-8k RAW. The only reason I can see why RED included Prores 2k is to make moves in the narrative TV/Rental market.

TBH RED has always said RAW is their way, so I don't know what all the fuss is about...

 

[Tarquin Cardona]

To Phil. Seeing as you seem to have magical powers when speaking with Jarred There is the question of 4K pro rez as well that keeps coming up. Is this something that can be enabled overtime with the existing processing?

 

[Joe D'Arcy]

To Phil. Seeing as you seem to have magical powers when speaking with Jarred There is the question of 4K pro rez as well that keeps coming up. Is this something that can be enabled overtime with the existing processing?

Jarred hinted at that without making any promises.

 

[Tarquin Cardona]

Thanks Joe. I missed that quote from earlier. I think it would be critical for me it terms of upgrade. I keep being a broken record about this but to take Red into edit in Premiere and have the color tools there is holy **** for me. So I would need the full 4K pro rez goodness to make the leap I think as I love my 'vintage' Dragon BTW. For what its worth I have commercial clients for whom I used have to do the whole ProRez thing. In part because they were cutting in FCP7. Now they edit on Premiere and recently just back up the RedRaw. So minds they are evolving.

 

[Milan S.]

Ken, Jarred has confirmed ALL Dragon cameras (Epic/Scarlet/Weapon) are eligible for the next sensor, so the ride isn't ending!

There's just a new Roll Royce in the garage that you don't have to buy/upgrade to if you don't want to.

The BMW you are currently driving is still totally awesome!!
best

Pro-res = Rolls Royce? Wow.

Please stop with misinformation.

ALL Dragons are eligible for the next sensor by upgrading to Weapon body first.
That's a known.
Yours is a guess and you are trying to sell it as a fact.

 

[Brian Boyer]

Pro-res = Rolls Royce? Wow.

Please stop with misinformation.

ALL Dragons are eligible for the next sensor by upgrading to Weapon body first.
That's a known.
Yours is a guess and you are trying to sell it as a fact.

From an exchange with Jarred:

Jarred - since you are in the answering mood ;o) - can you confirm that all three cameras (Scarlet, Epic and Weapon Dragons) by being part of the same current sensor family - will be eligible to upgrade to the next sensor technology beyond Dragon in one way or another?

Thank you...

Yes I am... sorry had to be in the booth today... ready to answer away

And yes.... All Dragons will be able to advance to the next round.

And:

Weapon is at the highest end of the Dragon family remember.

Based on these quotes and, considering that Weapon is an addition to the Dragon family, not a replacement, you might be wrong about the path to a new sensor being through Weapon only.