My last RED

[Scott Crawley]

... it does affect the actual pricing for the service, based on a perception. Perception is everything.

Perception, and supply and demand... that is what both of you are saying and I don't disagree. However, since someone called me "myopic" in this topic recently I have to reiterate: What happens to demand for the Alexa you buy today after the inevitable 4k Alexa (or 4k option) is released? What will it cost you and how soon will it hit you? How long will it take to recover the additional expense and will there be enough time to do it before the next best thing comes along? I would be absolutely shocked if Arri let 2013 come and go without jumping onboard the 4k train.

How sure are you that the Arri 4k image will be better than that of Dragon? Are you willing to bet $100,000? If you switch now, that is exactly what you are doing.

I would respectfully suggest to anyone that it makes good sense to wait AT LEAST until the Dragon rears it's head to make a move.

 

[Andy Roberts]

If I was the owner of Red, I would do what Jim is doing. Lowering the cost of entry on the eve of the 4K revolution seems like a tremendously smart idea that will benefit every Red product owner. Because as Red survives and thrives and DOMINATES, that is good for consumers of Red products... more choices, more upgrades, more features. As Red's market share and profits grow, so does their ability to meet their customers' needs.

I bought a Stage 2 owner's Epic X package last year (at late 2011 pricing) because I didn't want to wait for Stage 4 and prolonged delivery of items. It has been a great year. I took out a 5-year loan to buy it. If every year Red came out with a new camera, that may have stung some (as other camera companies do). But Red has built an upgradeable ecosystem, making me feel very confident that I made the right decision. I bought the camera WHEN I needed it and the price was fair. My purchase price is a sunk cost and all I can do is maximize the tools I have... a Red Epic X is more than sufficient for my needs and the needs of my customers. It may be my last camera purchase, but not because I'm disgruntled, but rather because it is such a completely satisfactory camera with upgrade options.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

What's your rate for grading?

I would be too embarrassed to post it on here. A problem that I have besides very low rates is also not an understanding of what color grading workflow is. I had a lady that wanted me to color grade her HVX200 project and she hadn't finished editing it yet. The footage was so terrible shot and source files so disorganized... that I gladly turned it down. On many jobs I spent way too much time educating rather than color grading. I started to have free workshops because of this issue. Turnouts are low... the biggest rental company down here started low pay workshops... they are quitting those workshops also. Everyone is now a DP, director, etc... but the market is filled with garbage and an extreme lack of knowledge. On one shoot I tried to show a client that was operating the RED how to safely eject a magazine... he said no... you do it. He didn't even want to learn how to do that. On a shoot four weeks ago... a client came with his own RED One M... all four brick batteries were all discharged... so we had to start charging the batteries off the generator. It's a wild west out there. On the same shoot... they took four hours to put the matte box and follow focus on the camera... due to renting the gear and not building the camera prior to the shoot. I even had one shoot that I had to babysit the directors 12 month old son while 1st ACing. I could go on and on... like the shoot where a director wanted to screen capture the footage playing back off of a laptop... because the editor couldn't figure out how to export the footage from REDcine (I was on the phone for one hour trying to walk him through the process). The directors computer was his wife's... it was a six year old PC and he only had a guest account on it... it was a PC that wasn't even capable of loading REDCine. I travelled all the way to Miami to find that out.

Prepare for the tsunami of crap.. heading your way.

 

[rod bradley]

Mike's perspective is helpful and wise.

It is hard to imagine anything well-shot and worth seeing with Red cameras now, will become obsolete, if it has some authentic humanity as part of it. If 35mm film lives on, so will good work shot on Red. The tool helps good work to be produced whether it costs 40K or 10K or 4K.

I think sometimes, some of us in the movie game can forget how privileged a world we live in. Even some of us in the lower echelons who feel ignored or marginalized.

In the larger perspective, Red has been transformational in ways that are healthy, not just in terms of their technology, but also in terms of business practice and attitude. Even this lowering of the threshold price of the Epic, whatever the reasons, will prove to be positive in the long run.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Owner Operator paradigm vs rental house model

Owner Operator paradigm vs rental house model

For many years most projects above a certain budget level had a standard way of doing business that included renting gear. For camera manufacturers the rental houses were essentially the customers, not the end users. Some higher end DPs and folks in remote locations would buy "pro" camera packages but that was not the norm. Rental houses would simply stock an appropriate number of units of each item to match local demand.

These days the number of owner operators is substantially higher, but are there lots more well budgeted projects to service? I would argue that if anything there are less. IAC, basic business theory would suggest that the market will find its level. If there are too many people buying cameras and renting them for unsustainable rates then most will go out of business and the market will re-calibrate.

I bring all this up to address the notion of perceived value in the marketplace - the "Alexa must be better because it costs more" trope. Are some producers singing that song, sure - but does that make it true. Even if you believe that perception is reality (see Politics, USA, circa 2012 hehe) it seems a bit unfair to roast RED for that. As others have noted the march of progress claims its share of victims (see F23, nee F35, nee F65) and buyers of any high technology product are at high risk.

Dismiss my opinion as fanboy spin if you like, but blaming RED for the rapid depreciation of technology investments is off point. If you as an owner operator are, like it or not, also a mini-rental house then you have a classic business model problem - lack of inventory scope, inability to scale quickly with demand, etc. Also not RED's fault.

At the end of the day the other option, not lowering the price, might help some of us who are deeply invested in RED's camera technology and need to pay it off, but how realistic is that for RED in their competitive marketplace? Companies who kept their prices high all those years created the market space RED exploited, how stupid would they have to be to make the same mistake?

Cheers - #19

 

[Curt Pair]

Not true at all... the sale value of the camera affects the brand perception of the camera. The brand perception of the camera affects how much people are willing to pay for it. A RED One MX selling for the same price as Canon 5D Mark III affects clients perception of the value. A good example of this is the ARRI Alexa... it's high priced and more valued. If RED hurts their brand... they also hurt my investment in their brand.

Andrae,

I couldn't have said it better. I couldn't agree more! I had a call last Friday, the DAY AFTER this announcement from a client "So since Red just dropped their prices and the camera isn't as good, you're dropping your prices too, right?" I have a feeling more of this is on the way. I've been bombarded with emails "So this means Red admits the camera isn't as good as Alexa and F65?" That's a tough one to defend when I don't understand the reasoning either. I would rather have seen accessories take that price reduction so ALL customers could share in the savings, not just the new ones.

I've felt like the silent minority! I didn't like the announcement at all. I feel it hurts my business... I'm glad I'm not alone.

 

[Brian Merlen]

Dead on Blair, the reality is if cameras of good quality still cost 200k a lot of us wouldn't be owner ops... So to demand Red shuts the gate now, after they lowered the price of entry is both unfair and unrealistic... None of us would own a cinema camera at all if it weren't for the paradigm shift your mentioning

 

[Brian Merlen]

I would tell that client off. Like this isn't the first time a company ever liquidated an older model? GTFO with that bs man, every company in the world does that, cinema or not. Plus how many other cameras you see not having their prices lowered after SIX YEARS on the market???

Andrae,

I couldn't have said it better. I couldn't agree more! I had a call last Friday, the DAY AFTER this announcement from a client "So since Red just dropped their prices and the camera isn't as good, you're dropping your prices too, right?" I have a feeling more of this is on the way. I've been bombarded with emails "So this means Red admits the camera isn't as good as Alexa and F65?" That's a tough one to defend when I don't understand the reasoning either. I would rather have seen accessories take that price reduction so ALL customers could share in the savings, not just the new ones.

I've felt like the silent minority! I didn't like the announcement at all. I feel it hurts my business... I'm glad I'm not alone.

 

[Elsie N]

Andrae,

I couldn't have said it better. I couldn't agree more! I had a call last Friday, the DAY AFTER this announcement from a client "So since Red just dropped their prices and the camera isn't as good, you're dropping your prices too, right?" I have a feeling more of this is on the way. I've been bombarded with emails "So this means Red admits the camera isn't as good as Alexa and F65?" That's a tough one to defend when I don't understand the reasoning either. I would rather have seen accessories take that price reduction so ALL customers could share in the savings, not just the new ones.

I've felt like the silent minority! I didn't like the announcement at all. I feel it hurts my business... I'm glad I'm not alone.

Curt, I wonder how many of those customers have been reading these posts on Reduser and hearing the RENTERS (not you, but the others) saying this was GOING to happen. Any renter with any gumption would have said to him or herself, hey! they EXPECT me to expect a lower rental price, so I will use their own words to GET a lower rental price.

 

[Kwan Khan]

Prepare for the tsunami of crap.. heading your way.

Hahahahahaah.... I AGREED

 

[Scott Crawley]

Andrae,

I couldn't have said it better. I couldn't agree more! I had a call last Friday, the DAY AFTER this announcement from a client "So since Red just dropped their prices and the camera isn't as good, you're dropping your prices too, right?" I have a feeling more of this is on the way. I've been bombarded with emails "So this means Red admits the camera isn't as good as Alexa and F65?" That's a tough one to defend when I don't understand the reasoning either. I would rather have seen accessories take that price reduction so ALL customers could share in the savings, not just the new ones.

I've felt like the silent minority! I didn't like the announcement at all. I feel it hurts my business... I'm glad I'm not alone.

The perception of the renter does not change your financial position though, does it? If you adjust your rate to serve that perception it is your choice, your folly. I suspect you will do what you have to... do what you can. The camera system cost you what it cost. That has not changed, and unless your direct competitors reduce their rates neither will you. If the market becomes more saturated as Andre anticipates, you may need to adjust rates, etc. etc.

It just isn't reasonable to try and reduce a complex marketplace phenomena to such simple terms, but nobody ever said customers were reasonable, just that they were right ;-)

 

[Bob Gundu]

Once again, people are looking as far as their feet here. Lift your head up a little and think about what RED are up to in the near future. RED are soon to be solidifying their foothold in high resolution acquisition and delivery. Talk about drilling the message home. RED will be part of the vocabulary just like Adobe is today. I'm not even talking about Dragon yet. RED once again are paving a roadmap where others, still in my opinion are deciding whether they have a car in the race. Others are catching on, but RED clearly have a vision.

 

[Daniel Murphy]

Here is another thing to consider: RED is just reducing the price of Epic ahead of the Dragon update a bit early. After the Dragon update Epics will cost $25,000. The original Epic pricing on the November 13, 2008 update was $28,000 so it is really only a $3,000 price drop. The price increase to $34,000 was in response to supply problems caused by the tsunami.

Justin, you make a great bit of sense with this rational deduction. Also, folks remember despite a $19K EPIC you're a country mile from a working unit for renting to others or charging clients in real world. Can't express how happy I was in March to have an EPIC (purchased before increase) with a Side SSD, LCD Touch, RED MOTE and Side Handle. But wait. How about a viewfinder with proper mounting accessories, rail components, lens mount, MEDIA, CLUTCH system, Matte box and whatever else to actually make your system emulate what clients expect from cameras?

It adds up quickly as I found out.

The drop in value hurts but I'm moving forward and eagerly anticipating Dragon...and yes, longer it takes to release the higher expectations...at least from my perspective.

I can bitch with the best of them but have decided to act proactively and look toward the future. I show clients what EPIC can do, sell my abilities and go from there. As for rental rates, established DP's get $1200-$1,800 (and more) for DSLR's in the Bay Area with operator. Depends on client and how one's brand is marketed. :yesnod:

 

[Jean Déraps]

You certainly won't stay in business very long with that attitude...

I would tell that client off.

 

[Mike Garrick]

Andrae LOL. respect for handling the crap, some of those stories just leave me .............shaking my head. Unfortunately I think there is going to be more of it...... a lot more in the future. If nearly everyone can own gear the only dividing line will be experience and knowing how to use it.

I'm putting on my diving suite as I type.

P.S. As to the OP's comments, sort of a reminds me of what you say after a split up with a 'significant other' and never again.

 

[Curt Pair]

Curt, I wonder how many of those customers have been reading these posts on Reduser and hearing the RENTERS (not you, but the others) saying this was GOING to happen. Any renter with any gumption would have said to him or herself, hey! they EXPECT me to expect a lower rental price, so I will use their own words to GET a lower rental price.

You may very well be right... I fully understand that because of the internet, clients are MUCH smarter now than they were 10-15 years ago! I know that just about ANY client is always searching for a reason for a discount. I have crazy stories involving that... as I'm sure most do!

I'm coming from nearly a Sony "exclusive" world and hoped I had left that behind me. To me, and it's MY OPINION, Red is helping these types of folks out there, and NOT me!

I read Jim's post... and frankly, I was upset by it. Sure, I know it's MY responsibility to work the camera. When I bought my M in January, it showed up, but I couldn't USE it! So... I paid five months of the financing fees until all of the accessories showed up to ALLOW ME to shoot with it to earn a living! I was fortunate along that way that being the "first" customer to purchase a Red from Band Pro, they were able to get me some of the accessories for periods of time to learn the camera and to shoot with it! However, my full package wasn't ready to go until the end of May.... So having the camera for five months hasn't afforded me the ability to pay for the camera.

Like others, I'm offering the Epic package WELL BELOW "national average" rates, just to get it out there. Just as I start making good progress with clients, this happens, and now they want even lower rates. To me, this is hardly something I can get excited about... Therefore, I'm the minority. I'm not slamming anyone else. I'm only examining my own situation. This isn't exciting news for me. It's been disheartening. All I can do is pray that 4K delivery comes sooner than later, and that my competition has to replace their cameras because they aren't ready for 4K! In the meantime, I have to survive the economic downturn this appears to be creating.

If you're new to Red, have been so busy you need another one, hey I'd be jumping for joy too! I don't question the image the Epic creates. In fact I love it. It's the best camera I've ever USED! I KNOW that I'm the one who ultimately is responsible for creating that image, it's more than just the camera or lens, it's the composition, the lighting and understanding how they weave together.... but too often, clients lock in on buzz words and that taints the whole thing... I'm hoping this is not the case with the price drop! Based on past experience... I'd bet the competition will swarm in and do their best to make this a disadvantage for Red.

 

[Andy Roberts]

You certainly won't stay in business very long with that attitude...

I don't want clients like Curt was describing...ignorant and demanding. The Epic and its quality IS NOT on trial here. It has been found to be OUTSTANDING by the jury of movie makers and movie viewers.

 

[Chris Newton]

I bought an Epic M, love it, really not at all bothered that its more than halved in price, that's technology.

If you want an investment don't buy tech gear, depreciation is parr for the course.

I am really pleased I can now rent an Epic at half the price for B camera, that's great news.

Red's price cut announcement is absolutely great news for every film maker, am I bitter, not one bit. Long live progress.

 

[Curt Pair]

The perception of the renter does not change your financial position though, does it? If you adjust your rate to serve that perception it is your choice, your folly. I suspect you will do what you have to... do what you can. The camera system cost you what it cost. That has not changed, and unless your direct competitors reduce their rates neither will you. If the market becomes more saturated as Andre anticipates, you may need to adjust rates, etc. etc.

It just isn't reasonable to try and reduce a complex marketplace phenomena to such simple terms, but nobody ever said customers were reasonable, just that they were right ;-)

Scott, you're right! Clients try to over simplify for sure! I was a dedicated Sony user for 20 years! When they came out with XDCam I was an EARLY adopter. I had clients tell me "well, this is cheaper than your DigiBeta so your rates should be lower!" To the "price" end, that was true... However, the feature set was so much deeper, one had to KNOW what they all were, when to use them and HOW to use them! I explained that is what they were paying for.

I'm an owner/operator. I don't rent out my gear. Calls don't really come around for that. Besides, there are rental houses here in Phoenix that take care of that market.

I'm afraid... I'm the guy who lowered the price to get the business! While the others were still shooting on 5Ds, HDcam, Varicam, etc. I started pushing Epic, Epic, Epic. I had to be an educator for the company, the brand and the abilities too! I did so willingly and happily! Price is ALWAYS a concern, so I adjusted my rates for my Epic package to be competitive with HD type packages.

My point was that I was shocked to have heard from a "non-technical" client so quickly... "I was just reading an article online about the how Red dropped their prices...." and now they expected even lower rates. This isn't typically a lower rate client either... so I realized I need to prepare for this reaction from others too! They have no problem paying my "labor" rates, but if I don't lower the Epic package rates, they'll go elsewhere or use a different camera.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Scott, you're right! Clients try to over simplify for sure! I was a dedicated Sony user for 20 years! When they came out with XDCam I was an EARLY adopter. I had clients tell me "well, this is cheaper than your DigiBeta so your rates should be lower!" To the "price" end, that was true... However, the feature set was so much deeper, one had to KNOW what they all were, when to use them and HOW to use them! I explained that is what they were paying for.

I'm an owner/operator. I don't rent out my gear. Calls don't really come around for that. Besides, there are rental houses here in Phoenix that take care of that market.

I'm afraid... I'm the guy who lowered the price to get the business! While the others were still shooting on 5Ds, HDcam, Varicam, etc. I started pushing Epic, Epic, Epic. I had to be an educator for the company, the brand and the abilities too! I did so willingly and happily! Price is ALWAYS a concern, so I adjusted my rates for my Epic package to be competitive with HD type packages.

My point was that I was shocked to have heard from a "non-technical" client so quickly... "I was just reading an article online about the how Red dropped their prices...." and now they expected even lower rates. This isn't typically a lower rate client either... so I realized I need to prepare for this reaction from others too! They have no problem paying my "labor" rates, but if I don't lower the Epic package rates, they'll go elsewhere or use a different camera.

So what is your package day rate?