My last RED

[sam karr]

A new Canon HV-40 cost $1,000 three years ago. Today it sells new for $600. Look at how the new prices on have dropped the Sony F3, Canon's XH's... I could go on and on, but it's not going to make you feel any better.

I don't have any opinion on this whole price subject apart that it's a big mess between prices and capabilities between the 3 models now. It's just that we should compare what is comparable.

 

[Elsie N]

The prices have no bearing!!! Here, let me spoon feed this ...if I buy a Rolex that has a value of 25,000 from a friend yet it's real
Worth is a 100,000 it value isn't what I paid its what the market will bare. That said, it goes on the books with that value
As it gets insured at that value. now all the stage 234 nonsense is irrelevant as that was RED saying thank you to us for
Believing when others didn't and enduring a beta growth process and upgrade paths were to cease after that until epic and
Nature met in Japan hence the last path was to be dragon. So there's a lot that isn't being put into the equation.

I think you are comparing something (Rolex) that has no value other than inflating egos. Probably much better watches out there at keeping time. But a camera like Epic will make great pictures no matter what its price. YOU can cause your camera to lose value by lowering your prices for rental. If enough people who rent out their cameras hold the line saying this camera is better at what it does than its competition, the price for rentals will maintain. Price is a mercurial thing. The camera is a constant.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

People here are talking across each other, comparing apples to oranges. Yeah, both can be eaten, but that doesn't make them the same thing. One group laughs and ridicules the other, and the other tries to justify why they feel the way they feel.

Sigh.

This thread will never end. Its like two parallel rails that'll never meet. Time to move on, people. Nothing more to see here.

 

[Scott Crawley]

The prices have no bearing!!! Here, let me spoon feed this ...if I buy a Rolex that has a value of 25,000 from a friend yet it's real
Worth is a 100,000 it value isn't what I paid its what the market will bare. That said, it goes on the books with that value
As it gets insured at that value. now all the stage 234 nonsense is irrelevant as that was RED saying thank you to us for
Believing when others didn't and enduring a beta growth process and upgrade paths were to cease after that until epic and
Nature met in Japan hence the last path was to be dragon. So there's a lot that isn't being put into the equation.

So what you are saying is what, that it doesn't matter that your Epic has appreciated two thousand dollars last year and you are just pissed that is isn't still worth almost 2x what you paid? Is that what you mean? I don't get it.

 

[Mike 'Fireman' Ross]

Resale Value. Resale value. Resale value. That is the subject here.

The argument jumps from one point to another, from apples to oranges, which is why it continues. By reading over these posts there is one fact everyone agrees with: it's unwise to count on resale value from a RED camera. It can drop 50% literally overnight.

Discussions of other cameras, shooting skills, upgrades, sensors, new technologies are all irrelevant because they're particular to each individual - we will argue about them here forever. What's not particular nor subjective, and everyone here, including (or perhaps especially) the moderators including RED employees, is that a RED camera will lose resale value. Fast.

Again, if you wish to buy a RED camera you should not count on resale value and I'm probably the 100th person to say it. When you've taken that point, you can then apply the other associated issues (other cameras, upgrades, sensors, client base, etc.) and move forward on your own.

Maybe a 40% drop in resale value overnight doesn't bother you. Maybe it does. The point is that it's unarguably there and you do with it what you will.

I wouldn't single out RED here; you are a FOOL to count on the resale value of ANY piece of cutting-edge digital electronics, and this is not news, it's been the case for *years*.

RED are just bringing a little more honesty and transparency to the process than we're used to from the likes of Sony, who will keep the price artificially high - then obsolete their camera overnight with a new model. Ask anyone who bought an F35 what its resale value is, or how people with an F65 feel now the F55 is hitting the market...

People here are pissed with RED for slashing prices, rather than being angry with Sony and Arri and asking why they haven't been in the habit of slashing theirs? WTF? Come on!

If MB slash their prices by 50% tomorrow I won't be worrying about the resale value of my old car, I'll be round the dealership ordering that CL-Class before they change their minds!

Mike

 

[sergio arguello]

Even at the risk of swimming in the deftness of that last response...yes I do enjoy when my investment accrue value ...I guess your just more bohemian than I am and a true Artíst. I don't like losing money EVER!M!

 

[Peter Moretti]

People here are talking across each other, comparing apples to oranges. Yeah, both can be eaten, but that doesn't make them the same thing. One group laughs and ridicules the other, and the other tries to justify why they feel the way they feel.

Sigh.

This thread will never end. Its like two parallel rails that'll never meet. Time to move on, people. Nothing more to see here.

The point being made here is that extreme price depreciation has been the norm in technology intensive products for decades now. The most obvious being computer equipement. Well what did Jim & Co. call the Red One? A super computer w/ a lens attached. What did Jim say was digital's ace in the hole vs film? Moore's law.

NLE, VXF and coloring apps have all plummeted in price. Avids use to cost $100K+. Final Touch was $20K until it got included in FCP for free. Resolve was even much more expensive and it's free too, or close to it.

The same has happened to camera prices, as countelss examples have illustrated.

So this shouldn't come as a surprise. It's just that when it happens to you it hurts a whole heck of a lot more than when it happens to "some schmoe stupid enough" to invest over half a million dollars on Media Composer, Avid DS, Resolve and a Sony F35 only to see it lose 90% of its value.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Arri 535 five years ago $500k, now $13k on eBay:mad2:
Sony F35 five years ago $$220k, now for sale for $8k :mad2:

You see, it is not brand specific. RED retained its value reasonably well compared to some other examples.

First example is a film camera in the era of switching to digital.
And the price is used on Ebay. Not on Arri's web.

Second example is one of pionerring 35mm digital cinema cameras, made in a transfer phase, with inadequate resolution to replace film.
And the price is used on Ebay. Not on Sony's web.

...

And a third Canon example is a consumer camera and the comparison is ridiculous.

 

[Scott Crawley]

Even at the risk of swimming in the deftness of that last response...yes I do enjoy when my investment accrue value ...I guess your just more bohemian than I am and a true Artíst. I don't like losing money EVER!M!

No no, I don't claim any more artistry than the next guy, but if you sold your camera today you would make money. Until you sell your camera you have neither made or lost anything. (Unless you leveraged your assets with a loan or something, then you might be screwed.) I hope you made a video, film or something though.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Even at the risk of swimming in the deftness of that last response...yes I do enjoy when my investment accrue value ...I guess your just more bohemian than I am and a true Artíst. I don't like losing money EVER!M!

I'm a greedy capitalist too.

Just sold one of the EPICs... will list the other one for sale this week too. I'll be down to a cheap RED One.... that I couldn't lose anymore value in. I'll take my money and put it into some good lenses and lighting. That seems to be where the demand is.

 

[Scott Crawley]

Sell it all. What the hell, so we only make ten million. Gordon Gekko




FinestQuotes: http://www.finestquotes.com/movie_quotes/movie/Wall Street/page/1.htm#ixzz2BOUOR4TZ

and shame on you then, for not selling it at peak value.

 

[Peter Moretti]

First example is a film camera in the era of switching to digital.
And the price is used on Ebay. Not on Arri's web.

Second example is a digital cinema camera with inadequate resolution to replace film.
And the price is used on Ebay. Not on Sony's web.

...

And a third Canon example is a consumer camera and the comparison is ridiculous.

First, a lot of great looking films were made on the F35/Genesis, so let's not belittle the capabilities of this camera too much. And I'm sure that if you think a new one should still sell for $200K, Sony would be willing to put one togther for you .

Second, why don't you take the time to research the price of other cameras from when they were released to where they are now or close to when they were discontinued? I suggest starting with Sony's F3.

 

[Stephen Matthews]

I don't buy/rent a camera for it's perceived value and status, I buy/rent it for it's real world capabilities. And anyone who thinks it's any less of a camera after the price drop needs some schooling, in fact with every update they get better and better.

Sorry to say it, but like the condo industry in my city, seems like the rental industry blew up way to big in anticipation of a market that shifted and now many people are in a very difficult situation. I feel for them but you can't over saturate a market and if you are in one you need to figure out how to stand out or innovate and adapt into something new.

Now I'm not saying this is directed at any of you or even true it's just an observation I made last year when I looked into getting a loan and starting a rental company, after some research I found it did not seem like a very good idea, considering the amount of start ups and huge rental houses I would have to compete with.

 

[Elsie N]

I'm a greedy capitalist too.

Just sold one of the EPICs... will list the other one for sale this week too. I'll be down to a cheap RED One.... that I couldn't lose anymore value in. I'll take my money and put it into some good lenses and lighting. That seems to be where the demand is.

Yikes! Andre. Before you go heavy into lighting remember that Dragon has xx amount of stops of DR. Maybe just FF lenses?

 

[Peter Moretti]

I'm a greedy capitalist too.

Just sold one of the EPICs... will list the other one for sale this week too. I'll be down to a cheap RED One.... that I couldn't lose anymore value in. I'll take my money and put it into some good lenses and lighting. That seems to be where the demand is.

Andrae,

Keep the other Epic. What are you going to do when Dragon comes out and you can't upgrade for $6K?

 

[Carlos Reyes]

FWIW Andrae is really a great guy I was getting ready to purchase a RED and he had me over his studio going one on one with the epic helping me understand some of the things you cant learn on the forums etc. he has monthly meet ups going over lighting the cameras, doing tests etc. its a shame he's letting go of his epics as I was hoping to rent stuff from him, but hey I guess I'll just be hitting him up for lights and lenses at some point!

 

[Kwan Khan]

I wouldn't single out RED here; you are a FOOL to count on the resale value of ANY piece of cutting-edge digital electronics, and this is not news, it's been the case for *years*.

HUmmm. So I should cancel my MEIZLER MODULE order and wait!!! (Just jokin' fellas)...

People who complain on price-drop are generally people who have not done their home work right (in a past).

Here is what I did and why (and I am glade that I did it right)
I planed for Stage 02 but When JIM announced EPIC-M (out of no where), I was super PISSED OFF (just as much as you people here)
But right after I knew that Stage 2 isn't right for me. Some how I knew that this is exactly what going to happen to REDone market (MOORE'S LAW)
I quickly withdrawal and went for Stage 03 and kept my self Busy with my RED (and waited for epic).


Simple Maths;
$17,500 credit for traded-in RED ONE + $10,500)

PL MOUNT ($2000)
SIDE SSD MODULE ($1500)
5" TOUCH LCD ($1600)
REMOTE ($550)
MODULE ADAPTOR ($1250)
PRO BATTERY MODULE ($1950)
2x REDVOLTS & DSMC TRAVEL CHARGER ($515)
Total of $7,415

$28,000 - ($17,500+ $7,415)
Once My EPIC arrived it coast me $20,585 (8 month ago).

I Kept all my REDone Accessorie. I knew My REDone will come back to me. Now I order me a REDone-MX with smile on my face + wait for dragon

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

First, a lot of great looking films were made on the F35/Genesis, so let's not belittle the capabilities of this camera too much. And I'm sure that if you think a new one should still sell for $200K, Sony would be willing to put one togther for you .

Second, why don't you take the time to research the price of other cameras from when they were released to where they are now or close to when they were discontinued? I suggest starting with Sony's F3.

Thank you for the suggesions, but that is not necessary.

With respect, your rethoric suggests you are missing the point.
Which includes brand perception, market segments, customer reliance and rapid devaluation of own products out of the blue, not replaced by new breakthrough technology.

 

[Dennis Hingsberg]

First, a lot of great looking films were made on the F35/Genesis, so let's not belittle the capabilities of this camera too much. And I'm sure that if you think a new one should still sell for $200K, Sony would be willing to put one togther for you .

Second, why don't you take the time to research the price of other cameras from when they were released to where they are now or close to when they were discontinued? I suggest starting with Sony's F3.

F3 price really stayed the same, only change was including the SLOG RGB 444 upgrade option FREE (which early adopters paid $3800 for).

And I hope you're not implying the F3 is near being discontinued, for broadcast work at least the F3 has a decent road ahead.

 

[Chuck Z]

I would be too embarrassed to post it on here. A problem that I have besides very low rates is also not an understanding of what color grading workflow is. I had a lady that wanted me to color grade her HVX200 project and she hadn't finished editing it yet. The footage was so terrible shot and source files so disorganized... that I gladly turned it down. On many jobs I spent way too much time educating rather than color grading. I started to have free workshops because of this issue. Turnouts are low... the biggest rental company down here started low pay workshops... they are quitting those workshops also. Everyone is now a DP, director, etc... but the market is filled with garbage and an extreme lack of knowledge. On one shoot I tried to show a client that was operating the RED how to safely eject a magazine... he said no... you do it. He didn't even want to learn how to do that. On a shoot four weeks ago... a client came with his own RED One M... all four brick batteries were all discharged... so we had to start charging the batteries off the generator. It's a wild west out there. On the same shoot... they took four hours to put the matte box and follow focus on the camera... due to renting the gear and not building the camera prior to the shoot. I even had one shoot that I had to babysit the directors 12 month old son while 1st ACing. I could go on and on... like the shoot where a director wanted to screen capture the footage playing back off of a laptop... because the editor couldn't figure out how to export the footage from REDcine (I was on the phone for one hour trying to walk him through the process). The directors computer was his wife's... it was a six year old PC and he only had a guest account on it... it was a PC that wasn't even capable of loading REDCine. I travelled all the way to Miami to find that out.

Prepare for the tsunami of crap.. heading your way.

Even when I offer to do free 3D video projects... no one can afford it (renting the beamsplitter rig). I often offer to do free 2D indie projects... some projects we start and then after one day of shooting the project collapses. Once again completely for free. It's tough out there.

A good example is... I volunteered to do a free project... they started a fire in my studio.... heavy smoke was everywhere. The next day, I asked for them to replace the fire extinguisher... they asked me how much of it they used. lol... no kidding.

Andrae, those stories are just too fucking funny! :rofl::rofl::rofl: I can't believe that shit actually happened to you. What was the approximate age of those numbskulls? Were they college kids shooting their film thesis?