Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Lose the "Visual Verbosity" please

Status
Not open for further replies.
I also do agree red could loose all these markings. The less the better, it indeed makes a camera much cleaner and neater to look at.
all the names, lines, fonts somehow cheapen the brand instead of enrich it. Less is more :) keep it simple and functional, i hope red's next body design will have that, i think this kind of threads help to express how some people feel about it.
 
I actually had good use for the screw holes markings. When I been on the phone with the metal shop ordering custom camera gear I tend to look over towards the Clutch and then I can toss some wanted screw standard into the conversation.. lol. It's actually true, in the states you maybe do not understand as you are on inches for screws, in europe we normally use mm threads, so all the screw holes marking really have been a big help for me and saved me quite a bit of costs as I do not have to send the camera or gear over to have the tooling guys checking the treads. Then I do not mind the rest of the branding stuff to much, but I can agree, the top fan graphics kind of made me halt on the add to basket button. :)

We have been using Alexa XT for the last two productions as the epic has been sent in for dragon update. And I hate to say it, but the camera teams have no complaints what so ever. When we shoot with our RED I always have a long debate with AC's and DP's and the rest of the camera crew about resolution, compressions, DR etc etc. Usually they really complain about framerate and they do not like that the epic only makes 96. something fps and not an even 100fps and such... with the alexa they have no problem with only 48fps and then higher framerates with only proress and even higher with only 4:2:2 and so on. They just see the limitations and work around it, but when using the epic they for some reason need to bitch about every single feature... in those situations I guess juvenile graphics does not help.

But I guess it's up to red to decide even though I think all camera gear should be black and hardly no graphics. Even though I'm not so much better myself, check out that tiny discrete little logo on our milo, I do not know how many jobs I got for having it there but I knew it's quite a few, people see it in some odd bts footage and call us when they are in need of moco. Then again I also painstakingly been retouching out those big letter out of reflections more than once :)
 

Attachments

  • IKEAhead11.jpg
    IKEAhead11.jpg
    78.9 KB · Views: 0
Joe, I seriously doubt the owner of the company has a hands on approach regarding the graphics - This is the marketing department - not the owner who is responsible for the design of the graphics. To suggest that the billionaire owner of this company has directed this graphic mess and that by questioning it, questions his ability to be a billionaire and thus "steps over the mark" is a ridiculous assertion on it's very face. I am saying precicely the opposite, that the billionaire owner probably has too many other things going to be focused too much on these details. And this is why a thoughtful person will bring up these issues, especially on account of the very longstanding position of the Red Camera company to solicit precisely that - recommendations, augmentations, and improvements. So you are welcome stay put within the "marks" and lets others bring up important issues that need discussion.
 
The thing is Bjorn, that it is a simple matter to google the thread size of a red cage. and once a person has done this one time, there shouldn't be a need to continuously do this over and over.
 
harry stuckey said:
The bottom like is that the customers do not like it, it diminishes the aesthetics of the camera and diminishes it's performance. Therefore they should be removed or at least placed much smaller and more inconspicuous and NO PRINTING WHATSOEVER SHOULD BE ON ANY PART SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED FOR HEAT DISSIPATION!

I await the response of the marketing representatives responsible for these decisions.
If no response is received from the managers responsible then I would suggest this thread be bumped up to the level of the owner of this awesome company.

Thank you for your consideration on this matter
Click to expand...


I'm game and I'll play devil's advocate here.

I don't know if I totally agree as thousands of cameras have been sold at this point. I personally think that most "don't care", which is more or less the side I'm on. I do care of an accessory or component is designed intelligently though.

I like the tactical design concept and how it's reflected on the AKS. The graphics are there to "really let you know" where things are. Same can be said for the Top Fan 2.0 being red as it's supposed to be visible so you don't block it, which I have literally seen done now.

As suggested previously, you can paint or tape any AKS if you feel it's too "loud". Nobody is stopping anybody from doing this.

Imagine a camera being rented out on set. Perhaps a first time rental. Perhaps not. Would they know that it's a 1/4"-20? Or more exciting, M4! Would they know where things go? If you were making a custom part or had somebody making a custom rig, could these graphics help?

It's not really about "marketing to the lowest denominator", but more about making the camera quick to "digest" for different types of users under various conditions. At least that's the impression I get. Yes there is a bold marketing strategy at play with the Red Pro AKS range, but the actual informative markings I have little criticism for as they were once new to everybody out there.
 
harry stuckey said:
Joe, I seriously doubt the owner of the company has a hands on approach regarding the graphics - This is the marketing department.
Click to expand...

Um. I seriously doubt you know who the founder of Red is exactly.

Jim's had a large hand in designing a good chunk of things. And also approving them. He is in fact a "fairly" accomplished designer. You should look up some of his work. He's made a buck or two on this front.


It's fine to make recommendations on product improvements, but don't assume anything. There was a time when these cameras were in a wooden box.
 
First of all Phil, why would you seriously think I wouldn't know who the founder is? I most certainly do, but I do not throw people's names around in conversations that they are not directly involved in, especially since I have never met the man personally and don't want to claim to know what is in his mind. It's called respect. Second of all, how in the world is having screw holes clearly marked, a beneficial thing, since not a single screw in the universe is similarly marked. If the person doesn't know what the screw he has in his hands is, what benefit does it serve to know what the hole is? Right? I mean I've never seen a screw marked. And not only will the screws invariably be unmarked but they are very likely to be much harder to find out what size and thread they are than googling a similar query regarding cage components screw hole sizes which is a simple matter to do. This will tell you right away what the screw hole are. So if the person like you say is inexperienced and out for the first time, they are very very unlikely to know what the the thread and size of the screw they are holding in their hand is. (In fact there is not a chance in hell they will know what their screw dimensions are. ) So what purpose then is the need to have the hole dimensions printed on the holes themselves?

But this thread was really more addressing all the marketing messages and not the technical markings which i have less of a problem with. I do not want rosette adapters and other rail components to have the words RED TACTICAL, and other marketing messages plastered all over it, and no, gaffers tape or spray paint as someone else suggested is not an option, only a serious klutz would spray paint over anodized aluminum, and gaffers tape on rail component is another bad option.

The best option is of course to lose the unnecessary and ugly marketing messages. they are too esoteric anyways and too inside-ish.

I think your assertion that I am overstepping my scope in assuming that Mr. Jannard may not be so focused on rail components is I believe false. Mr. Jannard has much better things to focus on than marketing messages on rail components.

And finally I will wager 5 thousand dollars that if the question was put to a vote among all red owners regarding whether or not they would prefer the rail components to have these large marketing messages plastered all over them - they would choose to NOT have them. You can play devils advocate all you want. I'm prepared to put it up for a vote. And I am prepared to deposit 5 grand in escrow with a lawyer of your choice to make it clear my absolute certainty that these marketing messages are unwanted. And that they will lose the vote. If anyone is willing to also put up this money I will happily take it. Because you will lose it. Want to make a bet?
 
Last edited:
I've done my homework bob, I lecture on philosophy and quantum mechanics at Berkeley and also am a guest lecturer at other universities on topics ranging from history to philosophical matters.
http://berkeley.atspace.org (scroll half way down to vox) and here at State University of New York. http://vimeo.com/10979688

(in other words bob, don't be such a lemming just because someone made a false comment that I didn't know who Jannard was -I'm thinking of interviewing him for a radio show that I have, the subject will be innovators who have changed the paradigm.) I've known who jim jannard was before you did, dufus.
 
Last edited:
harry stuckey said:
First of all Phil, why would you seriously think I wouldn't know who the founder is?

And finally I will wager 5 thousand dollars that if the question was put to a vote among all red owners regarding whether or not they would prefer the rail components to have these large marketing messages plastered all over them - they would choose to NOT have them. You can play devils advocate all you want. I'm prepared to put it up for a vote. And I am prepared to deposit 5 grand in escrow with a lawyer of your choice to make it clear my absolute certainty that these marketing messages are unwanted. And that they will lose the vote. If anyone is willing to also put up this money I will happily take it. Because you will lose it. Want to make a bet?
Click to expand...

That's all good. I'm just letting you know literally everything out of Reds door gets Jim's or Jarred's approval.

While Red listens to customers and embraces their feedback on many things, specifically camera features, I wonder why you feel this is something that can be put up to a vote and effect a privately held company's choices.

Why are we bringing a lawyer into this? What is happening right now?

I'm not saying it's what majority of owners wants, that's literally not what I said. I'm saying the design is focused on the worst case operating scenarios with a few embellishments here and there.

Love it or hate it, this is one thing that makes Red unique and stand out in comparison to other companies.

And yes, from a marketing perspective for a brand new camera company competing in a market of well established camera companies with decades of experience and branding having RED extremely visible helps..... well..... make it extremely visible. Red's a bit more established these days, but I honestly still feel it's the case in terms of brand visibility.


Personal and Mod note. For somebody who lectures at higher institutions, which I myself have to do at 1pm today, personal attacks on Redusers are frowned upon here. Seriously waiving "lemming" and "dufus" around? Come on man. If your argument is to keep it classy you need to wear that as well.

harry stuckey said:
(in other words bob, don't be such a lemming just because someone made a false comment that I didn't know who Jannard was -I'm thinking of interviewing him for a radio show that I have, the subject will be innovators who have changed the paradigm.) I've known who jim jannard was before you did, dufus.
Click to expand...


So yes, feel free to make suggestions about design decisions. That's all good and on topic. But know that your level of vigor for this topic is not the case for a good amount of shooters. Shooters who merely want accessories that get the job done. The vast majority of whom aren't exactly focused on looks, but rather form and function.
 
Hello Harry what equipment do you own, REDone? EPIC? lenses? Which accessories do you have?

Got any AC or DP work yourself i can check out? Id love to see your shooting style.
And for the markings that bother you.
Have you tried a sharpie?

Thank you
Luis
 
I would be willing to live with all of the names and graphics if the cameras were designed by people who actually used cameras. I don't understand why Red is so reluctant to use a system that has already been established and used by somebody else. Case in point the location of the connectors on the epic. They are probably in the worst possible place on the camera. It would have been super easy to have them on the dumb side of the camera angled backwards like an arri 416. The evf connector right next to the lens mount isn't winning any awards either. I love Red, and I love their cameras, but a little form follows function would be preferred over how "badass" they look. But, the fact that a 3rd party hasn't modified the SSD module with the EVF plug in a different spot, means that it is a pain in the ass, but not that big a deal.

Nick
 
Well Phil to explain my position regarding the Lemming & Dufus comments, these are not terms I throw out loosely, if you look at the chronology you will see that bob first suggested that I did not do my homework. What was this vague accusation based on? I'll tell you what it was based on. It was based on the fact that you had made an erroneous comment regarding whether or not I knew who Mr. Jannard was. (which was fallacious)
Bob then took it upon himself to assume that all unsubstantiated comments must be true so he acted upon it as if it was true, and I suppose for the unfortunate characteristic that some people have to assert utter nonsense to either please someone or give themselves the impression that they are pleasing someone. Regardless why he decided to jump in with his useless comment into a very well articulated exploration of an issue that I believe contrary to your assertions that Mr. Jannard and others in this company very much want to hear. So I choose Lemming and dufus out of kindness actually, because lemmings such as this usually get a mach harder treatment.
This discussion is about one thing and one thing only WHETHER OR NOT MARKETING MESSAGES AS PROMINENTLY DISPLAYED ON THE CAMERA IS BENEFICIAL TO RED, or IT"S CUSTOMERS. But there is this tendency for some people to want to please people by being good little minions. These are the ones I fire, because they are useless in an organization. I would much rather have a discussion on matters of design than this attempting to kill the messenger or marginalize the message. Especially on account of if you count the numbers of Red Customers who agree with my position on this matter vs those whop love the marketing messages this will be another indication why the points I am raising are valid and important to this company. I too have better things to do that write long screeds explaining all this, and I have even less time to write off the defuses and lemmings like bob who feel it necessary to just on someone because they have the perception that they may get some points or something by doing so.

Now regarding this idea that things be put to a survey of customers? That is the normal way all successful companies get that way. They don't get that way by ignoring customers desires, opinions and requests. That's why. And regarding wagering on it, I simply said that because I know for sure that people, yes even red customers, don't want marketing messages all over their equipment.

The Red Logo appears very prominently in silver against black on the SSD module. Having the word red written 1ten or twenty more times on every compnonet DOES NOT enhance the marketing message, it detracts from the marketing message. And yes it is very very possible that Mr. Jannard himself is so busy that he may not have given this one issue of the cluttering of their products with too many redundant marketing mistakes from the marketing department much thought. I am not saying for one minute that he is not actively involved in the design of his camera. I know full well the history of this company and camera. (I was a red one owner before the epic) But if you actually think that Mr. Jannard can possibly oversee every single minutia of detail regarding every component, it is you Phil who are making wild assumptions here, not me. How do you know that Mr. Jannard is even aware that customers are raising issues regarding the marketing messages? I'd like to know how certain you are here? If you read carefully I never once unequivocally stated that MR. Jannard never gave attention to this issue, but you seem pretty certain that he has. Yet I am not sure why you would say this because I believe this thread, if the not the very first time it has been bought up, certainly is the most exhaustive articulation of this issue. So why Would jim jannard know of this issue if it hasn't been an issue until now?
 
Last edited:
Hi Luis
kindly go jump in a lake, not here to answer any of your questions.
Stick to the issue dufus. Stay on topic and leave your pissing contest in Camirillo where it belongs.
(I've been shooting since 1979 and just sold my Arri BL1 and Red One a few years back)
not here to impress you dude.
 
Last edited:
What I don't like is this human instinct to be hostile to very well articulated points just because they are not in sync with what the person thinks certain members of a community think. This is called "kissing up" (or brown nosing) or being obsequious (there are endless names for this unfortunate instinct) and these are the world's most repulsive people. The truth is that articulations such as the one I have presented are VITAL to a company and not at all hostile to a company. So having strong opinions met with this sort of "kissing up to please the boss" mentality I assure you does not please the bosses around Red, I have known this company in fact to be quite responsive indeed to such articulations. So Luis with your pissing contest and bob with your inaccuracies both get the dufus label from me, and rightly so. This is a technical forum about the camera not a pissing contest (nor is this a "bad attitude" - this is a clear articulation from a seasoned observer of human nature.)
 
And still not a single person has addressed the point that since no screws are ever labeled, it serves no purpose on the set to have the cage screw holes labeled. no purpose whatsoever if you don't know the dimensions of the screw you are holding in your hand. But no one will address this point, just personal attacks against the person raising what are completely valid and logical points. They just ignore the points and start making personal attacks or comments. nice.
 
Last edited:
It seems a number of of redusers want a Less is More design style.

Harry, if we could apply that philosophy to this thread it would be good too.
 
we wouldn't be having this discussion unless I brought it up so be grateful anderson and don't tell me how to communicate.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top