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Lose the "Visual Verbosity" please

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harry stuckey

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I am inquiring about how to remove all the useless silk-screening which now unfortunately pollutes the otherwise very nice Red DSMC designs. I do not need to have lines and arrows pointing to every 1/4 20 screw hole on the tactical plates, identifying them as 1/4" 20 holes, nor do I wish to have marketing lingo splashed all over the products. An example is the new Red Pro Fan upgrades. The top fan is a well designed looking piece of machining. However the aesthetics are unnecessary cluttered and destroyed with all the unnecessary marketing printing. It actually has the words "TWIN- THRUST DUAL FANS" printed on the thing.

While this may excite some pimple faced gamer raised on neato Nvidia cards (with their awesome neato graphics) it is unlikely to have much use for a cinematographer in the field who has enough notes and markings to pay attention to in the field, to have more visual clutter on the camera surfaces. Absolutely positively if there is no function to the graphics, remove them. Marketing messages such as "Twin Thrust Dual Fan," do not belong on a camera of this caliber, (maybe on a Go Pro or something but not a professional camera)

Marketing messages like that belong on the box the product comes in and in the advertizements used to sell the product, not to be plastered on the product itself. This is a marketing mistake. Ditto for the annoying and ugly white arrows around the fan and unnecessary repetition of the Red Pro logo and other various trademarks and branding. (on this one tiny little product the fan upgrade, there are three marketing messages, two trademarks and an unnecessary constant reminder of the awesome Dual Thrusters, ha ha. Don't get me wrong, I love dual thrusters, but don't really need to have to be reminded of this every moment I use the camera. And it looks a bit too unprofessional, actually.

I know how it is to be too close to products or projects, one needs to stand back occasionally and take some advice from those cold dispassionate objective ones far away from the day to day. But barring any adoption of my sensible recommendations to remove the verbosity, if possible could you at least give information regarding the proper solvents required to remove this unnecessary ugly marketing clutter (which genuinely cheapens the look of the product and makes it look like some sort of "Gamer" video card aesthetic.) Ditto for the rail and cage components, they're starting to look like franken-cages, (with all the white incomprehensible symbols and unnecessary words representing the stitches.) It is a definite aesthetic diminution no doubt, and unnecessary to point out and label all these 1/4 20 holes, I mean really.

Warm Regards Vox
 
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I have wondered about the silly hole markings myself.
 
Black grafter's tape does the trick ;-)
 
would like to see the general design go towards purely functional and away from badass as well...
 
I am not a fan of Red's brand design either. Do you have to put the letter "X" after everything? Epic-X, Mysterium-X, Reducation-X (that'll look good on a resume). Is the Tactical Hand Controller really tactical? Can it be used as a weapon or something? Just seems like some silly branding that is more likely to get me pulled out of line by the TSA along with my Bomb EVF and WMD. Where it really hurts is in trying to convince producers that Red makes great cameras when all of their stuff is branded like G.I. Joe accessories.

And black is my favorite color too but maybe having a cool looking black camera body isn't worth the extra heat it generates in direct sunlight.
 
In many ways Scarlet, with its minimalist side panels, is a more mature looking camera. EPIC has sold well in part due to its branding. The DOPS that want it for its performance don't care what it looks like. The ones that want a cool looking camera are satisfied as well.
 
Thanks for the opinions. Love it or hate it, at least we have a personality. Some things are just always going to be part of our DNA.

And, FWIW, never been a gamer....
 
Logan Smith said:
Just seems like some silly branding that is more likely to get me pulled out of line by the TSA along with my Bomb EVF and WMD.
Click to expand...

don't forget your THC...

i've never heard of anyone having a TSA problem because of these labels.
 
It's an interesting one and I get the aesthetic issue. Initially I was like "these guys are nuts with all these marks".

After a few years now working with the DSMC AKS on set under various conditions it's pretty clear to me they do it so we can see them easier in dim lighting conditions.

ACs pop out a small light and it's pretty clear and quick to see exactly where things need to go.

Makes sense to me. I've seen a couple folks "black out" their Epics though. Looks cool, lacks that one specific bit of functionality.
 
Hmmm. I have to admit that I'm not a fan of this marketing concept and printing either. I understand it and it was a neat concept calling your support centre "Bomb squad" and all the military terminology for parts but it's something that does grow out of style. It's like the Transformers movies and thinking that flames on Optimus Prime makes him that much bad ass. We were all satisfied with how he looked as a cartoon. Less is more and simpler is actually harder in many cases to achieve. How many trucks out there have Optimus Prime flames. How many cameras have these markings on all sorts of tactical parts. How many female cinematographers like military themes.

Like I said, I understand it but it does nothing to help sell it (in my opinion) and like Apple with their use of colours, after a while, the novelty wears off. Don't see Apple labelling every port USB3 and draw lines everywhere. They sell the beauty of their shape/look, materials, and effective innovations. That should be enough to be cool (cause it is cool looking at an Epic is pretty cool without all those markings). Obviously just my opinion.

Also, anyone suggesting taking paint or tape (although pretty funny if not serious) is pretty ridiculous. That's like saying why not use a marker to cover up the flames on a truck if you don't like them :-)

BTW, those that do use the markings to measure. Cool. Glad it's handy for them.
 
While I can surely agree to a certain extant that RED has not been the classic camera company and accessory maker in the way of making all black gear and leave it at that, I actually find it very cool, and like it very much, it just adds personality and the designs are very cool, also you'll be surprise of how many times I see people trying to mount the wrong screws in the wrong holes, so the markings just simply make it easy to identify, and while some are just a look choice... I find it a nice touch, at times in some specific accessories can be a guidance to those that are yet learning... And to me, well I simply like my gear to photograph well... ;)
 
The use of "Bomb squad", "tactical", "Epix-X" etc always struck me as a little juvenile. I shy away from using them when discussing red's kit as I feel it makes the brand seem a little along the GI Joe/Hasbro marketing line - but I'm not crazy about flames painted on a Harley tank either and I guess it's done their branding no harm.
 
THe "Bottom Line" on this matter.

THe "Bottom Line" on this matter.

What if Red did a poll and asked their customers if they would prefer to have all of their their rail components littered with marketing messages, (which are not functional aids to cinematography - they are cluttered distractions to professional cinematography.) Would Red Camera Company still feel this necessary then? As a part of their DNA as suggested by the Red Rep on this thread.

We have seen so far on this thread, a majority of Red Customers express their DISLIKE for this marketing clutter which makes their cameras look a bit FRANKEN-CAMERA-ISH.

I will wager several thousands of dollars with anyone on this forum that if a poll was taken of Red Customers on whether or not they prefer to have their rail components and rosettes etc all plastered with marketing messages or not then majority (the overwhelming majority, I would wager) would opt to NOT have these marketing messages printed all over these components)

The point of a marketing department and the point of this thread and the point of this forum is to present serious genuine articulations of these matters as a feedback mechanism to a company who, like any company must have such feedback in order to fully understand and address their markets. And this is the same reason why I have taken my time to articulate this problem.

A smart marketing department will think this one through and discuss if there is any value to such an articulation as presented today. A foolish marketing department will ignore this important articulation and simply say, "well that is the way it is." These are the type of people who do not belong in a marketing department because the whole point is to make correct marketing decisions and avoid marketing decisions which do not serve the product, company or customers. (I believe that one of the stated philosophies of Red Camera Company was that it very much welcomes and responds to the feedback from it's customers. Welcome to feedback! :)

As we have seen on this little thread - an overwhelming DISLIKE for these marketing messages printed directly on the product.

Sometimes organizations get so busy and large that various managers so not respond to the will of the market and continue on a path for some unknown reason.

The process is a simple one. You have a meeting and bring up these points, and please make sure that the owner of the company is aware that their marketing department is putting out aspects of the product that are CLEARLY NOT WANTED by the majority of their customers. It becomes a simple matter then, you change and remove the marketing messages, simple. That's how marketing should work. This idea that it is "In the DNA" is of course not the case. The red epic DNA is about technology and capability not the screen printing of neat gamer style graphics onto parts whose function is heat dissipation. And while I am sure that the ink they have used to screen print marketing messages on a heat dissipation part is comprised of "special" paint, unless that paint is make of 100% aluminum alloy - it represents INSULATION, albeit on a very small quantum level, it will nevertheless impair the heat dissipation properties of that unit over a similar unit with no insulation screen printed onto it.

And this is even more inexplicable because the thing gets covered up anyways by a cover or cage, leaving only the partially occluded marketing message to be seen which i suggest even further diminishes the "look." In other words: Whatever marketing benefit one could hope to achieve by screen printing insulation onto a heat dissipation unit ONLY OCCURS at the time the customer takes the unit from the box and installs it onto the machine. However once the customer then puts the cover and or cage on (several seconds later) whatever benefits that marketing department felt it could achieve by insulating that heat dissipation unit, disappear in all of an instant, leaving only a heat dissipation unit with diminished heat dissipation qualities and only little bits and pieces of the words "turbo, thrust twin fans" to be seen through the grate of the fan cover and cover of the cage - which again, DOES NOT IMPROVE THE AESTHETICS of the unit like I'm assuming it was intended to.

Would the marketing department still continue to put these messages onto units if 90% of their customers preferred to not have them. In that case, the normal response would be to fire the marketing persons responsible for NOT responding to their market and replacing them, with those who do respond to the will and wishes of the market. (That is after all the one and ONLY purpose of a marketing department, not to push things because they think they look "neato," but to take into account the will and wishes of the market and respond to them accordingly.

I make the case that from a technical, professional cinematographic standpoint these markings not only do NOT benefit the cinematographer, I will wager that they also do not benefit Red Camera Company nor it's owners.

Somewhere along the line the decision was made by a marketing manager NOT A CINEMATOGRAPHER to include all of these marketing messages.

On this forum it states that RED Company representatives read the comments and suggestions. And one Red company representative did enter the conversation, but only to suggest that these marketing messages were "in the DNA" of the Red Camera company. (implying that there will no change on this matter)

Spleens are also in our DNA but we don't display our spleens on our shirt sleeves.

DNA is present in the organism from the beginning of it's life, yet I see no traces of this "marketing DNA" in the earlier manifestation of the red camera - certainly not to the degree it is present today. The DNA back then was all about breaking down walls with the very most innovative technology at prices which opened new vistas for both the industry and the artists who use these cameras to make their art. This marketing clutter on the product itself is I suggest not at all in line with the "DNA" of red in the slightest, it is a marketing mistake which commonly occurs and can be fixed so as to not keep occurring. That is the reason why I took the time to articulate this to my favorite camera company Red. I do so out of love for the product, but in this case a bit of "tough love" is in order for the marketing manager who has made and continues to make these marketing decisions which are DETRACTING from the aesthetic aspects of the camera and DIMINISHING the functionality and performance of the product.

Again, the words "Twin Thrust Turbo Fans" (or whatever that dumb nonsense is printed on the new fans) is not professional and is only suitable on a video acceleration card for pimple faced gamers spending that big $120 bucks, on that super deluxe video card so that their performance in grand theft auto will be enhanced. That's all. But on the Red Epic it represents ONLY unnecessary clutter and actually from a quantum scientific standpoint being on an aluminum part whose purpose is heat dissipation it IMPINGES this function by providing INSULATING PROPERTIES onto a surface whose purpose is heat dissipation. Sure this effect would only be noticeable on a quantum level but nevertheless it would represent a MEASURABLE DIMINISHMENT OF THE HEAT DISSIPATION PROPERTIES of the functional unit it is intended for. And while this measurable diminishment of the functionality would be very small, the whole point of the design philosophy of this cutting edge product has from the beginning necessarily been about factoring ALL factors, each small improvement - all of which TOGETHER add up and become a symphony of efficiency and functionality.

I would like to hear the response of the person or persons directly in charge of these graphic screen printings on this product and hear from them their rational for the following points:
1) What benefit does the marketing executive or manager in charge of product graphic design feel is gained by the inclusion of such marketing messages screen printed on anodized aluminum parts on a camera whereby heat dissipation is of principle concern? (in other words: what's in it for Red. inc)
2) Has the marketing department ever queried their customers to inquire as to whether or not they want these messages on these products? (if not why not)
3) What benefit do they feel it gives Red Customers in the field to have the words "Twin-Thrust Turbo-Fans" screen printed onto a heat dissipation unit?
3) What competitive benefit is gained by inclusion of all these marketing messages with their customer base (especially when their customer base has already expressed DISLIKE of this aesthetic clutter)
4) How do marketing messages on rail components benefit the sale of these components vis a vis a customer choosing these components over other rail components from other manufacturers? (I am guessing here that the marketing department may feel that loyal Red customers may feel since they have spent a premium on these components that they would want to "Show it off" as to impress some imaginary client that they have quality components as opposed to the many thousands of emerging components, which could be the only hope, albeit a convoluted one)
4) Would the marketing department feel comfortable sharing this thread with the owner of the company and getting his take on this matter?


The bottom like is that the customers do not like it, it diminishes the aesthetics of the camera and diminishes it's performance. Therefore they should be removed or at least placed much smaller and more inconspicuous and NO PRINTING WHATSOEVER SHOULD BE ON ANY PART SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED FOR HEAT DISSIPATION!

I await the response of the marketing representatives responsible for these decisions.
If no response is received from the managers responsible then I would suggest this thread be bumped up to the level of the owner of this awesome company.

Thank you for your consideration on this matter
 
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Ditto for all the other manufacturers of aftermarket products for the Red Camera. The last thing I want on my red camera is the the stupid looking name "W00DEN" or "TILTA" printed in huge letters right on the product itself. (Sure. it looks like they have a pretty nice offering of quality functional products, just please lose the necessity to have to plaster your company's silly looking and sounding name all over them. How we got into this idea that camera parts must all be thoroughly branded in this way is regrettable but I suppose is a part of our capitalist traditions and modality for visual clutter.
 
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Hi Ketch, I don't really see how having the screw holes clearly marked will prevent some clumsy (and I would say lazy minded) non professional from inserting the wrong screw into the clearly marked hole, because screws themselves aren't marked, so how does having the hole marked help the non professional get the right screw in there? It doesn't make sense. (If the screws themselves were also labeled "1/4 20" - the of course that would work but since no screws have such markings, how is it that having the holes marked in this way would help the non professional get the right screw in there?

We do NOT need to have each 1/4 20 hole on the cages to be identified and marked as such, we are professionals. And anyone forcing a screw of another size into a cage deserves what he gets. And these markings serve no function because surely a mentally deficient person (who presumably these markings are intended for:
A) has no place using a Red camera, and
B) deserves to have that hole in his cage which he tried to force a wrong bolt into ruined - lessons learned.


But certainly the numbers of holes protected from such mentally deficient persons I would suggest is such a small number because cinematographers simply are not that stupid, that the need to have these holes all marked in this way is too redundant and unnecessary and really only address the very dumbest of users. (let the very few numbers of dumb ones ruin their holes, if that is their choice or method of operating a camera system, all the better for Red to then find some profits in replacing such parts.
There are plenty more holes to ruin after the mentally deficient person has ruined his first hole by forcing a wrong screw into it. But don't force these nanny messages on the product itself and thusly onto the rest of the normally functioning cinematographers who do NOT force the wrong screw into the holes, reminding us to not be so stupid. And furthermore, it is a simple matter when one screws a screw into a hole, if it does not go in nicely - then it's the wrong F*cking screw! So easy, not rocket science here. And if unprofessional persons will be screwing screws into wrong holes, let them pay for their mistakes.


I do not need a sign on the dashboard and steering wheel of my car reminding me not to veer into oncoming traffic, I have a brain, and my normal brain functions handle this avoidance function for me, all of which occurs without the need for conscious attention to such. Likewise i do not need a sign reminding me to NOT force a screw into a hole on a piece of precision equipment such as a Red Camera. (those who do need such reminders, probably should stick with a Go Pro and avoid the Red Camera until they are "ready" to make that giant leap out of the mental abyss of stupidity.)

We have to get out of designing products and policies geared for the very dumbest ones, because this represents an insult and diminishment to those who are not thick and it is to the good ones that the Red Product should be and is addressed towards.
 
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I think the marketing from many companies is a bit full on. However if I was researching 'how to become a billionaire' I'd be more inclined to listen to someone who knows something about it.

I also believe that making a complaint or putting in a request or a suggestion is fine but telling a successful person how to run their business is over stepping the mark.
 
I like it. Its part of what RED is, and as Phil said it also helps see everything on dark sets. Much like how they add blue lines to ski jump landings... if it was all white it'd be harder to judge the slope. Same with an Epic with no markings in a dark room.

But there is always the option to black out these lines or putting gaffers tape over them if you don't like it. I do think the vast majority of people don't mind / like it versus the amount of people who don't like it, I just think the people who like it or don't mind are remaining quiet.
 
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