KOMODO....

[Alain M]

Awesome times coming soon for us RED Family users.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Well it works for us, AMIRA quality for a 1/4 of the price.

Nowhere did I suggest otherwise (bolded part) nor undervalue the potential or usefuless of it.

That being (unnecessarily) stressed...having shot, tested, throughly analysed multiple aspects of their imagery, put them through professional pipeline on set and in post, I can safely say - no it's not "Amira quality". And it's more like 1/10 of the price once you get the licences for codecs, resolutions, framerates etc. The good thing here is that you don't get 1/10th of image performance and price/(image) performance ratio is unquestionably very good.

The best camera is the one you can shoot with. The potential available today we could only imagine 15 years ago, when owning a 35mm motion imaging camera was a luxury to most.

In 2019 there are no more technical excuses to produce beautiful cinematic imagery, starting from compact stills cameras. Let's just not get ahead of ourselves and allow infatuation to affect reasoning, with unrealistic claims propagating misconceptions within our community.

 

[Misha Engel]

Nowhere did I suggest otherwise (bolded part) nor undervalue the potential or usefuless of it.

That being (unnecessarily) stressed...having shot, tested, throughly analysed multiple aspects of their imagery, put them through professional pipeline on set and in post, I can safely say - no it's not "Amira quality". And it's more like 1/10 of the price once you get the licences for codecs, resolutions, framerates etc. The good thing here is that you don't get 1/10th of image performance and price/(image) performance ratio is unquestionably very good.

The best camera is the one you can shoot with. The potential available today we could only imagine 15 years ago, when owning a 35mm motion imaging camera was a luxury to most.

In 2019 there are no more technical excuses to produce beautiful cinematic imagery, starting from compact stills cameras. Let's just not get ahead of ourselves and allow infatuation to affect reasoning, with unrealistic claims propagating misconceptions within our community.

Agree, it's better than Amira, only slightly.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Some rumors around are that BM might be working on an 8K version of their camera. If going by the same sensor type at higher cut, it would mean a 30,80 x 18,10 at 8192 x 4814 resolution, close to that of Gemini. Math isn't super accurate, but with the recent improvements to their lineup, it's pretty close in numbers and makes sense. Although their readout would be slow and rolling shutter high, it's an interesting cut if it happens.

 

[Bastien Tribalat]

So it seems DR on the Pocket 6K is around 11.8 to 12 stops. (according to https://www.cinema5d.com/blackmagic...-dynamic-range-latitude-rolling-shutter-more/)

I trust RED to do better than that

 

[Christoffer Glans]

So it seems DR on the Pocket 6K is around 11.8 to 12 stops. (according to https://www.cinema5d.com/blackmagic...-dynamic-range-latitude-rolling-shutter-more/)

I trust RED to do better than that

I think that will be one of the key features that make Komodo be at a higher price. If we get that rolling shutter and DR at $2500, imagine at double the price. It usually seems that the key things pushing prices higher up are sensor readout and DR. If you reach 14 true stops and a readout that makes the rolling shutter non-perceivable, its gonna be enough for the majority of high-level cinematography. To push prices down, you need to lower the processing power and DR. Resolution isn't really the thing that costs. I would guess Komodo being 13 real stops (Red advertising it at 14 stops) and a noticeable rolling shutter that's around 10-12 ms.

Thing that I noted on the released RAW files from the Pocket 6K is that, even with that rolling shutter, you clearly don't see it in the action-scenes. Most stuff will never be shot in a way where the rolling shutter is noticeable. The old Red One had massive problems with rolling shutter, no one but pixel peepers really cared, you still could shoot big movies on it.

 

[Bastien Tribalat]

I think that will be one of the key features that make Komodo be at a higher price. If we get that rolling shutter and DR at $2500, imagine at double the price. It usually seems that the key things pushing prices higher up are sensor readout and DR. If you reach 14 true stops and a readout that makes the rolling shutter non-perceivable, its gonna be enough for the majority of high-level cinematography. To push prices down, you need to lower the processing power and DR. Resolution isn't really the thing that costs. I would guess Komodo being 13 real stops (Red advertising it at 14 stops) and a noticeable rolling shutter that's around 10-12 ms.

Thing that I noted on the released RAW files from the Pocket 6K is that, even with that rolling shutter, you clearly don't see it in the action-scenes. Most stuff will never be shot in a way where the rolling shutter is noticeable. The old Red One had massive problems with rolling shutter, no one but pixel peepers really cared, you still could shoot big movies on it.

In the show The Boys on Amazon Prime, shot on Monstro VV, I noticed two or three action shots where the Rolling Shutter was very present. (mainly very quick pans)

 

[Christoffer Glans]

In the show The Boys on Amazon Prime, shot on Monstro VV, I noticed two or three action shots where the Rolling Shutter was very present. (mainly very quick pans)

Understandable due to the bigger sensor. The bigger the sensor the harder it is to push back on the rolling shutter. That's why many smaller sensors have a comparable rolling shutter and iPhone cameras have an even worse one. The cheaper they get the more rolling shutter and less DR you get. I would like to see Cinema5D review Monstro and Gemini, since it would be interesting to see how they appear on their DR and rolling shutter tests. It's no news that Red's 16,5 stops aren't really a usable truth since the pushed lower stops are unusable. Arri's 14 stops seem to be true stops, meaning Red and Arri are essentially tied in that area. They did a review on the Canon C300 MKII where they could clearly see that Canon's measurement of 15 stops was clearly false advertisement since almost five stops at the low end were totally unusable, so the C300 MKII is essentially only a 10-10,5 stop camera.

Sometimes it seems that camera developers bend the truth in specs a bit too far just because people are so fixed on specs. No, the Pocket 6K is not even close to the Gemini at 5K as a camera and in picture quality, but if you're an experienced cinematographer you will be able to do major productions on the Pocket 6K no problem.

Essentially, what do we need? Or rather, what do we need in 2020 from our cinema camera gear?

Now that 4K is just normal life for most, a 6K camera which gives you acquisition footage to downsample is just a basic feature. On top of that, 13 stops are enough, 13 true stops that is. Rolling shutter should be at 11-12 ms maximum. Sensor size should be a s35 minimum, Dual-ISO is a must (almost everyone is doing it now), genlock timecode, SDI, fast boot-up, small camera body, decent color science, internal compressed RAW at least at 50 fps.

It looks like all of that is way too much of a "minimum" but it's essentially what everyone is doing in one way or another. There's a form of diminishing returns in what cameras can do. I mean, Helium is better than Dragon 6K, but is it 2K to 4K better? Is it so much better than the 6K Dragon that the Dragon isn't able to produce superb quality? If the smaller cameras reach over into this diminishing return, they will be a viable choice for most users of cinema gear. This shift is happening and is going to shake things up. Everyone better be prepared, both camera developers and users.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Monstro captures cleaner darks when compared to LF at the same exposure when looked at in same resolution. Thats even true when the clipping point of the two cameras are lined up. So yes if saying Arri got +14 stops then its true to say monstro got more both usable and what you can mesure.

Rolling shutter becomes more and more difficult not depending on sensor size but resolution. Whrn you have a know lens, sensor and shutterspeed gyro info can drastically reduce rolling shutter issues introduced by camera movements. Such tech is used in the latest gopros, goprofusion and things like steadyxp. To me i find it odd that red does not implement such feature in rcxp for ef / known glas. All the tech and data is there they would just need to impliment the code.

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

So it seems DR on the Pocket 6K is around 11.8 to 12 stops. (according to https://www.cinema5d.com/blackmagic...-dynamic-range-latitude-rolling-shutter-more/)

I trust RED to do better than that

Just make sure to compare apples to apples. The 11.8 stop number Cinema 5D publishes is pretty conservative and excludes the noisiest, but still measured, stops that some other tester might include.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Even if we stipulate that Komodo will have better DR, less rolling shutter and superior color science vs the BMPCC6K - will the difference be more important to the target market than price?

I'm not trying to throw shade on Komodo, especially since they aren't in the wild for testing, just pointing out the realities of the market segment. Moreover, the advancements in sensor tech and low power processing driven by smartphones, etc is closing the gap between the top level cameras and the lower tier. Most of the folks who read forums like this one are able to see the difference between a Monstro and one of the lower spec cameras - and we care. Outside of the industry bubble, good enough - and cheap - might be hard to beat.

Cheers - #19

 

[Misha Engel]

Just make sure to compare apples to apples. The 11.8 stop number Cinema 5D publishes is pretty conservative and excludes the noisiest, but still measured, stops that some other tester might include.

They measure at SNR=2 (billable stops).

Alexa has 14 at 2k-DCI output.
BMPCC6k has 11.8 at UHD ~ 12.8 at 2k-DCI.

Let's hope RED will send their camera's someday for testing. (I expect very good results for the Monstro and Gemini in the DR test)

 

[Phil Holland]

Imatest reports Monstro pretty damn well with all of the OLPFs At the moment on a purely technical level it's in many ways the sensor to beat industry wide.

Heh. I remember when I discovered some of the extra jazz of IPP2 during a round of DR testing. The spookier stuff is I only test to actual clip, IPP2 provides even more juice via Highlight Extension for those who need it and know what to do with it. But I leave that number out because it's not universal across systems, it's more of that extra inch on a ruler you thought only went to a foot. I think next test I'll show both sides of that now that I've been able to accurately measure and truly understand it.

For even more DR and those who know what to do with it, this gets more fun with HDRx, which not many people explore. For those who just want to have some fun, crank up HDRx with a 3 to 6 stop rating on a locked off shot to make it easy on yourself. It comes at the cost of REDCODE Compression Ratio and you'll be rolling at 2X the minimum ratio for a given format. But with the data rates where they are these days and the improvements of RCR 8K 10:1 and things like 5K at 4:1 or 5:1 is very interesting with HDRx. You get well over 20 stops if going all the way over, but I like the 3 stop adjustment as a max as it's easier in post to handle for general moving content. Just did some tests on a project coming up in fall where we will likely do exactly that.

I think my next round of DR tests I'll write-up my full method and show some of the BTS stuff. I've probably got another year or two left in me doing these DR tests for people. Sort of got a bit tired after the last year with 6 cameras crossing my bow, some that needed multiple tests in there too "for reasons". Two of my "sanity check tests", nobody is insane enough to do because it just takes so damn long, but the result when all go right is a very accurate measurement you can dive into further. As of late I've been rating cameras for various forms of HDR productions even. I seem to be the only one (publicly) testing DR in a variety of ways to come up with solid result. Interesting, not much of this is temporally digested either, which is also part of the fun. My initial attempt at showing a frame average for a still image result for human perception from the motion in the form of 4, 12, and 24 fps stacks was received somewhere on the medium level by people. I did publish that in the form of motion however and that tells a tale in itself. I didn't publish that way last time around, but I expect the next really big sensors from everybody I'll need to go "full bore" to show the potential.

If and when that time comes and all the stars align I'll do all the cameras at once much like we did late last year. Probably the most expensive test shoot I've ever had to do because all the insane HDR stuff being "discovered".

 

[DJ Meyer]

Agree, it's better than Amira, only slightly.

I’ll have some of whatever he’s having.

 

[David Rasberry]

Even if we stipulate that Komodo will have better DR, less rolling shutter and superior color science vs the BMPCC6K - will the difference be more important to the target market than price?

I'm not trying to throw shade on Komodo, especially since they aren't in the wild for testing, just pointing out the realities of the market segment. Moreover, the advancements in sensor tech and low power processing driven by smartphones, etc is closing the gap between the top level cameras and the lower tier. Most of the folks who read forums like this one are able to see the difference between a Monstro and one of the lower spec cameras - and we care. Outside of the industry bubble, good enough - and cheap - might be hard to beat.

Cheers - #19

I think it was Phil that pointed out Komodo slots into the market nicely between the BM low end cameras and the Canon C200. One could add the Panny EVA-1 and Ursa mini pro in that group too.

 

[Phil Holland]

^ yep, currently where I'm at with it. But really it's going to come down to general specs once we get them.

Since this is a cubic cam people will need to accessorize it accordingly. I actually think the battery solution is alarmingly clever likely making this really ideal for run and gun or quick setups when in a pinch a Director might yell "hey, can we get a camera on the ceiling?!". Rigged properly this could be a doc filmmaker's dream too. I don't know Soderbergh (I did meet him while working on Solaris at Rhythm and Hues in the early 2000s, we did the wispy stuff which actually benefited Riddick later on), but filmmakers like him have been really trying to discover a small camera that helps them work wicked fast. I personally think DSMC2 is pretty damn small as is if you rig it right, but Komodo is significantly smaller and apparently a lower power draw.

My only wiggle is the 3.5mm jack for audio, but that's not the end of the world at all. Hell that might even be how we deal with timecode even if the EXT port doesn't handle it. There's clearly no space for a full size XLR and from the looks of it not much for one of the smaller connectors where that port is. I'm just trying to figure out how to rig it in 20 different ways for 20 different types of productions.

I see potential for riser accessories that do things, like a sneaky two phantom power XLR box under there that securely mounts might be pretty damn cool and it would help with the common rod height spacing for a follow focus.

I'm also curious about the accessory mounting outside of what we know. Jarred's clearly not showing us the top of the camera for some reason. I suspect bolt hole cheese, connectors, buttons, or some sort of combination of all that. I think the weirdest thing would be an integrated menu screen there w/ monitoring perhaps, but who knows. That would be really interesting to have some sort of fold out and spin LCD touch screen there, but that's not a lot of space up top. One of my early asks, though not possible, was to get video out of the DSMC2 Sidekick because I was working with drones early on a bunch and it would have been a nice sanity check when wireless dropped due to interference in big cities.

Since RED is integrating so much here; mount and battery, it wouldn't shock me if they could pull off an integrated articulated display up top. It would be impressive as hell actually considering the real estate available from everything we've seen so far. It would need to be a robust mechanism because in the world of smaller mirrorless cameras that is very much something that breaks early and often for some shooters. But maybe there's more to it that that, maybe something else is up there. I'm shooting in the dark here until I see it in person.

If it is fully integrated and all you need is a lens, media, and battery to film something; this would be the first time RED has done anything so streamlined. Even without the LCD, it is already.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

If Komodo makes images at roughly Dragon level with better noise contouring - any pixel peeper worth their peepers, will throw down a few grand more than what the BMPCC6K sells for. The open question is just how much more will the majority of the target market be willing to pay for a step up that may not impact the rate they can charge...

Cheers - #19

 

[Bastien Tribalat]

Just make sure to compare apples to apples. The 11.8 stop number Cinema 5D publishes is pretty conservative and excludes the noisiest, but still measured, stops that some other tester might include.

To me, that's what counts the most because as an editor and colorist I hate when people on set say "don't worry, we deal with it in post".
Sure, there might be occasions where you really don't have a choice but otherwise it should always be correctly exposed so you have the maximum possible DR (not even on the entire frame but on what matters to the director) and less grain/noise.
(I think denoiser tools should not be there as part of a workflow but as tools to deal with mistakes)

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

(snip) Sure, there might be occasions where you really don't have a choice but otherwise it should always be correctly exposed so you have the maximum possible DR (not even on the entire frame but on what matters to the director) (snip)

Well said. I would add that there is really no good reason to underexpose modern digital cinema cameras during capture.

Cheers - #19

 

[paulcurtis]

BMPCC6k has 11.8 at UHD ~ 12.8 at 2k-DCI.

Where did you get the 12.8 at 2k?

The C5D review has the 11.8 and even less at 3200.

I would agree that Komodo, in this day and age, should be aiming for a lot more than this, even as a B Cam to a DSMC2.

cheers
Paul