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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

KOMODO....

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joshua csehak said:
I'm sorry, by "example" I meant an actual movie clip where you downsample and we can see a gain in DR. B/C if we can't see it, it by definition isn't there, right?
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I think this is often the problem with academic discussions of sensors, color science and cameras. It's not really easy to show in examples, but experienced through post. Noise levels on Red, for example, isn't a problem for the final look of the footage, but it is a problem when qualifying and color grading. I get far better secondaries out of a BlackMagic than my 6K DSMC2. This is why DR charts don't really relate to real footage showing the DR, since a chart doesn't show the usability of the lowest DR stops.
 
Here, lot of usable DR. If it was dragon it would possibly have very similar measurable DR but no I could not gain it up like that and still have silk clean blacks. Monstro got more usable DR for two reasons, more resolution and cleaner blacks.

A006_C001_0828CC by Björn Benckert, on Flickr
A006_C001_0828CC by Björn Benckert, on Flickr
 
Christoffer Glans said:
I get far better secondaries out of a BlackMagic than my 6K DSMC2.
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Just to clarify, you're saying you have an easier time keying and using qualifying tools on Blackmagic footage compared to your RED because of the noise characteristics of the cameras ?
 
Björn, any chance you'd be willing to share that clip ? Don't have Monstro and I'm really curious to dig into those shadows and see what's sparkling under there!! :)
 
gabrielB said:
Just to clarify, you're saying you have an easier time keying and using qualifying tools on Blackmagic footage compared to your RED because of the noise characteristics of the cameras ?
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In my experience, yes, footage shot in normal exposure on my DSMC2 at ISO800 has a lot of noise that isn't bad looking but is problematic for keying, qualifying secondaries and general flexibility in post. So when people complain about BM camera's lower DR etc. I'd rather say they are generally easier to handle in post. If you expose Red correctly and manage through post I'd say you get nicer images overall, but it's quicker with BM in many situations. The resolution has been a problem, but I think I might rather use a Pocket 6K for greenscreen than a Red (however, Monstro and Gemini are other beasts in this regard).
 
joshua csehak said:
I'm sorry, by "example" I meant an actual movie clip where you downsample and we can see a gain in DR. B/C if we can't see it, it by definition isn't there, right?
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You have a perfect camera to test it yourself.

Capture some 6k HD footage at a fixed compression ratio and frame rate and capture the same footage at 3k HD at the same compression ratio and frame rate (change your lens setting to capture the same FoV and DoF).
Demosaic both to full-HD and you will see that the picture from the 6k capture is cleaner than the 3k one (make sure you have a lot of dynamic range in the picture).

If we can see it or measure it, it is there (not the otherway around).
 
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Hrvoje Simic said:
No it doesn't work that way.

If you reduce signal noise in shadow extremes with any of the techniques you don't gain any DR. What. So. Ever.
Poing of clipping and sensitivity stay the same. What is captured is captured. Period.

You only improve one image property of the range you are able to capture.
And there are more properties.

But some gear-"review" (promotion) sites might appreciate the continuance of the illusion.




This is terminology issue, aided with some online SNR.

You are currently missing a distinction between:
- signal to noise ratio ("the relation of what is captured")
and
- dynamic range ("range of what gets captured")

That online statement you are using as a basis doesn't help in making that distinction.




Yes there is a name for this type of route to attributing meaning.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wishful_thinking


That camera has potential and can shine in right hands, but wouldn't have that amount of stops if it was rigged to Orient Express.

Also, who is incompetent to capture a great image on that camera, no amount of additional stops avaiable in the extremes by the superior one will help to make the middle part of range appealing.
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Well it works for us, AMIRA quality for a 1/4 of the price.
 
Karim D. Ghantous said:
To the best of my knowledge, on a per-pixel level, DR is fixed and immutable at a fundamental level. Is that something that everyone can agree upon?
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Nope. In much the same way you cannot measure wavelength frequency from a single sample:


The larger the window of observed pixel values (for a given DR value), the more confident you can be of their actual meaningful DR.
 
Christoffer Glans said:
In my experience, yes, footage shot in normal exposure on my DSMC2 at ISO800 has a lot of noise that isn't bad looking but is problematic for keying, qualifying secondaries and general flexibility in post. So when people complain about BM camera's lower DR etc. I'd rather say they are generally easier to handle in post. If you expose Red correctly and manage through post I'd say you get nicer images overall, but it's quicker with BM in many situations. The resolution has been a problem, but I think I might rather use a Pocket 6K for greenscreen than a Red (however, Monstro and Gemini are other beasts in this regard).
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Interesting to know about your experience. I've always experienced noise with BM cameras that may make secondaries challenging. Haven't noticed RED footage from noisier sensors like dragon or mysterium X to be harder in that regard. Up to now I've solely worked with cDNG on Blackmagic which to my knowledge doesn't apply noise reduction. BRAW is a different story with its NR applied during the in-camera demosaicing thus less noise easier keys. Curious if your experience has mainly been with BRAW. Resolution and pixel pitch also affects noise characteristics or appearance and may influence things like you describe.
 
gabrielB said:
Interesting to know about your experience. I've always experienced noise with BM cameras that may make secondaries challenging. Haven't noticed RED footage from noisier sensors like dragon or mysterium X to be harder in that regard. Up to now I've solely worked with cDNG on Blackmagic which to my knowledge doesn't apply noise reduction. BRAW is a different story with its NR applied during the in-camera demosaicing thus less noise easier keys. Curious if your experience has mainly been with BRAW. Resolution and pixel pitch also affects noise characteristics or appearance and may influence things like you describe.
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A major factor is also how it's shot. Red works best in outdoor 5600K perfect exposure, with that you get perfect qualifiers and color depth. But low-key tungsten, mixed light or images where the lighting is dynamic throughout is a mess trying to get good skin-tone qualifications without noise interfering. Even tracking windows is a mess when noise sometimes interfere with the track points. I've only tried high-resolution BM footage and qualifiers almost always work at the first pick, smooth transitions, no noise interference. Maybe I've had luck, but I would say that the older MX sensor was way better for secondaries, Dragon and Helium don't. Gemini and Monstro is better, Gemini is close to how the MX felt in post, although better color science.

If you just look at the sensor and stuff scientifically with lab-level testing, you get results that aren't true to most real-world productions.
 
gabrielB said:
Björn, any chance you'd be willing to share that clip ? Don't have Monstro and I'm really curious to dig into those shadows and see what's sparkling under there!! :)
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Did not find the exact frame but got you this similar / even darker exposure in UHD its easily usable, as I see it between 50ISO and 12800ISO

https://f.io/94vBJkLB
 
Christoffer Glans said:
A major factor is also how it's shot. Red works best in outdoor 5600K perfect exposure, with that you get perfect qualifiers and color depth. But low-key tungsten, mixed light or images where the lighting is dynamic throughout is a mess trying to get good skin-tone qualifications without noise interfering. Even tracking windows is a mess when noise sometimes interfere with the track points. I've only tried high-resolution BM footage and qualifiers almost always work at the first pick, smooth transitions, no noise interference. Maybe I've had luck, but I would say that the older MX sensor was way better for secondaries, Dragon and Helium don't. Gemini and Monstro is better, Gemini is close to how the MX felt in post, although better color science.

If you just look at the sensor and stuff scientifically with lab-level testing, you get results that aren't true to most real-world productions.
Click to expand...


Interesting you've found MX to be way easier with secondaries. That might imply there is more than noise at play here...

And yes I was talking about real world type footage too :)
 
gabrielB said:
Interesting to know about your experience. I've always experienced noise with BM cameras that may make secondaries challenging. Haven't noticed RED footage from noisier sensors like dragon or mysterium X to be harder in that regard. Up to now I've solely worked with cDNG on Blackmagic which to my knowledge doesn't apply noise reduction. BRAW is a different story with its NR applied during the in-camera demosaicing thus less noise easier keys. Curious if your experience has mainly been with BRAW. Resolution and pixel pitch also affects noise characteristics or appearance and may influence things like you describe.
Click to expand...

Blackmagic cameras are not that noisy. I would say at 800 ISO, the 4.6K seems less noisy than the Arri Alexa, but the Blackmagic does have more underexposure noise.
 
Mendes Nabil said:
Are these the first Komodo footages here ? ..
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Nope, that film was shot well before Komodo existed. The Laundromat was shot on RED as far as I remember, DSMC2 of some sort. Don't know exactly which sensor, format, etc. I think Dragon or Monstro.
 
The biggest request I could ask for is that it could turn on in less than 10 seconds. I have a Gemini and love the image but a lot of what I do is high-end weddings and so much of my day is turning the camera on and off, often missing a lot of moments waiting 60 seconds for the camera.
 
Jason Henne said:
The biggest request I could ask for is that it could turn on in less than 10 seconds. I have a Gemini and love the image but a lot of what I do is high-end weddings and so much of my day is turning the camera on and off, often missing a lot of moments waiting 60 seconds for the camera.
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With Komodo you can hot swap batteries while the camera is on. I don't like to turn a camera off at all during a shoot unless it is a long break. Better to have enough battery to cover the full length of the event plus.
 
Yeah, I did see the 2 battery slots. Looks like it would fit 2 Sony NP batteries, but they have those pins sticking out which are a little confusing. Wondering if it means that they will sell plates for different small batteries. Hopefully not their own. Redvolts have always been a joke, but being able to put 2 big Sony NP batteries could be good. I imagine it will draw less power than the bigger bodies which will be nice. My blackmagic pocket 4K can go 3-4 hours on a NP970 so even if it draws twice as much getting 3-4 hours out of 2 batteries would be very welcome. Again though, the current models taking 60 seconds to turn on is pretty terrible at this point in technology. I don't know any other recent cameras that takes that long. I've got an Amira and that takes about 10 seconds to boot up. So hopefully this new body has enough new things about the internals that the startup time is significantly decreased.
 
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