Introducing the Panavision DXL

[Daniel Stilling]

On the contrary, this is a very natural growth for all three companies in my view. To imply Panavision simply slapped a sticker on it is shortsighted. I see it as a very nice blending of complimentary skills and talents from three very prominent organizations.

Absolutely. What bugs me is from what I've seen from interviews and written material is that Panavision is implying that it's only a RED sensor in the camera and not much more, which clearly isn't correct.

 

[Evgenios Zosimov]

I am with you on that Daniel, infact the whole unit is basically a Weapon on steroids, i can recognize a lot DSMC2 design all over the place. RED might be obliged by contract not to reveal any of the details of this but I guess it was all RED's idea and strategy to join up with Industry's "conservative elite" to create an exclusive unit for and Hollywood's benchmark. The next thing to do is to get Tarantino to shoot something on this to get that guy out of his big format film bubble.

 

[Phil Holland]

Maybe we could get the LI color science based on the current OLPF whenever they move on and tweak it for their own OLPF, why let the old color science just lie around :tongue_smilie:

I'm still gonna nag on Red and Graeme until we get it or something similar :laugh:

Don't nag anybody. But do read this.

As for the new OLPF and Color Science that is under development still, the focus is clearly to create something that is exclusive to Panavision, their workflow, and for their customers.

That's not stuff that ends up in anybody's hands except PV.

However, it's also some of the reason that people like me don't release our LUTs for that matter. It's part of the service I provide.

Yeah, but I meant with a number of these cameras. Or will there only be a handful?

Panavision can't so business with a "handful" of cameras. They have an armada of RED Epic Dragons for instance. Triple digits to give you more of an idea. There were/are 8 Weapon 8K bodies on GotG v.2 alone. They will be assembling a fleet. However, there is the added difficulty of creating the 8K sensor. By December they should have a decent batch of them.

 

[M Most]

.. I guess it was all RED's idea and strategy to join up with Industry's "conservative elite" to create an exclusive unit for and Hollywood's benchmark.

Perhaps I'm misplacing the credit, but the last time I looked Michael Cioni doesn't work for Red, he works for Panavision :sneaky2:

 

[Elsie N]

Don't nag anybody. But do read this.







Panavision can't so business with a "handful" of cameras. They have an armada of RED Epic Dragons for instance. Triple digits to give you more of an idea. There were/are 8 Weapon 8K bodies on GotG v.2 alone. They will be assembling a fleet. However, there is the added difficulty of creating the 8K sensor. By December they should have a decent batch of them.

Which of course means the 8k queue is being pushed further into the future by this and perhaps other secretive projects involving the 8k sensor. I think in order to make this more palatable to those with the 8k sensor paid for, RED should increase the price for new orders when opened up... that price should re-open for at least $30,000. That makes our $10,000 wait a little more worthwhile.

Jarred never said the cost of the 8k sensor would be $20,000... he said it would be at LEAST $20,000.

 

[Michael J Brennan]

Originally Posted by Mark Phelan
On the contrary, this is a very natural growth for all three companies in my view. To imply Panavision simply slapped a sticker on it is shortsighted. I see it as a very nice blending of complimentary skills and talents from three very prominent organizations.

In Dec 2014, Light Iron became a wholly owned subsidery of Panavision.
Was the camera commissioned before or after this date?

Cinegear attendees are suggesting that the DLX image will be inherently significantly different from Weapon.
Panavision mention new hardware that relates to timecode and monitoring and this is being merged with discussion of new colour science.

So it seems there is a conclusion drawn, that the raw files will have a unique look based on image processing hardware.

But, is there a difference in the image component of R3D files between Weapon and DLX?

A new OLPF can only do so much!


Michael Brennan

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

So it seems there is a conclusion drawn, that the raw files will have a unique look based on image processing hardware.

This conclusion would be incorrect.

But, is there a difference in the image component of R3D files between Weapon and DLX?

A new OLPF can only do so much!


Michael Brennan

The difference in an image from Weapon vs. DXL is subjective color processing and ultimately a choice of OLPF. And of course ... PV lenses

 

[Michael J Brennan]

This conclusion would be incorrect.



The difference in an image from Weapon vs. DXL is subjective color processing and ultimately a choice of OLPF. And of course ... PV lenses

Mark,
For clarity, where in the image chain is this subjective colour processing applied? Is the raw component of the the R3D files the same between Weapon and DXL? (Flags and encription to one side)


Mike Brennan

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Mark,
For clarity, where in the image chain is this subjective colour processing applied? Is the raw component of the the R3D files the same between Weapon and DXL? (Flags and encription to one side)


Mike Brennan

RAW is a bunch of numbers. And a header full of meta-data. When you debayer - you apply a color matrix - pre-gamma. These can be different for different OLPFs. And you could make a subjective matrix - but better in many ways to push the subjective stuff downstream from the matrix IMO.

Meta-data in the header can signal processing app to use a different matrix, gamma or color space.

 

[Mike Nagel]

Mark,
For clarity, where in the image chain is this subjective colour processing applied? Is the raw component of the the R3D files the same between Weapon and DXL? (Flags and encription to one side)


Mike Brennan

when debayering via the RED SDK... there will be LI option for DXL footage, same as there is now a DC1/DC2 option....

 

[Michael J Brennan]

Thanks Mark and Mike.
From what you have heard, do you think then that the raw sensor output(before encoding) is identical between Weapon and PV?
PV have not explicitly said they have altered the sensor. A marketing type jargon "sensor level" has emerged which helps to sell the idea that PV have Panavised the sensor itself using LI science.
Given PV have a serious sensor designer on board this is feasible.

It can take years to correct misinformation that spreads in the launch phase.
There is no evidence yet that a Weapon wont be able to come close to match or beat the image from a DXL



Mike Brennan

 

[Mike Nagel]

first off, a lot of things can change until Q1 2017 which is when the cam is supposed to be available...

second, as of right now it has been stated they will use a custom OLPF, which would make the capture different to Weapon unless u have the same custom OLPF - disregarding the Panny lenses which u may or may not have on ur Weapon, but which are required on the DXL since it is PV mount only...

everything afterwards is LI color science, a bit tweaked to work faster in post and bring the image to a better starting point, which will calm down a few DPs who simply have no clue of the post pipeline and/or what can be done in post - and/or more importantly productions that do not have the time, money or nerves to do it

IMO, RED can only be interested in these tweaks and/or custom adjustments as the major Achilles heel of RED cams is the post debayer image (compared to Arri), ergo the starting point in post... huge potential, but more work - every time


LI have tons and tons of experience w/ .r3d footage, would also be interested to see what peeps like CO3 would have to say in regards to input on custom OLPF builds and custom debayer matrices...

 

[Mark Toia]

They are getting to the stage where this sensor is so amazing already, a new OLPF will give minor look changes.. only the pixel peepers will notice the difference.

At the end of the day, 99.9% of all images shot for most projects go through some form of grading process, which effectively means that any in camera colour science gets instantly discarded the moment the colourist starts turning those knobs.

I for one get my footage into our grading suite and delete what ever "look" I shot on set, and I start from scratch... I'm not interested in any in camera look.

I put more importance in lens choices.
Everyone is so concerned with out of the box colour sciences, (that they never use) but forget that all lenses have some degree of colour and contrast which is dictating the colour and contrast that falls on the sensor anyway.

This film look mainly comes from the lens, Anamorphic's and old 50 - 60's glass will make sure that filmic illusion comes through.
I know I can tell quite quickly the difference between a COOKE S4 and a Master prime, Or a MKIII super speed and a Canon lens. Most pro's can. So with this knowledge DP's choose that look they feel most suites the project they are working on.

When I'm in the air with a 30-300 Canon, then jumo back to ground with a MKIII Super speed, I have a vastly different look straight up, A base colour science is not going to save the day, but tweaking in Resolve or Base light will quickly get them looking similar in tone and colour. But that lens character stays the same.

I dropped an old shot from my very first RED ONE into an edit the other day, And it graded up perfectly with my current day 6k Dragon material. And we all know the original colour science in the RED ONE was pretty average. Yet that colour science is discarded and modern day colour tools quickly bring it to life.

I think this 'Who's got the best colour science' discussion is so over rated.

 

[Nick Morrison]

I put more importance in lens choices.
Everyone is so concerned with out of the box colour sciences, (that they never use) but forget that all lenses have some degree of colour and contrast which is dictating the colour and contrast that falls on the sensor anyway.

One of smartest things said...all week...

One of most important (and relevant) features of the DXL is simply that it uses Panavisions exclusive glass.

 

[Daniel Stilling]

I think this 'Who's got the best colour science' discussion is so over rated.

Couldnt agree more. Lenses and also, let's not forget filtration, are really the heroes here.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

"Grass is always greener...."

...

 

[Michael Hastings]

One of the things I haven't noticed in the discussion is that in addition to Panavision sort of validating the Red technology it also validates the idea of using lenses with internal focus and iris motors that can be controlled through the camera ala the old Birger mount, current Red Canon mount and the optitek controller.

I have been a fan since the beginning since it obviously simplifies control in an underwater housing but there seemed to be resistance for more "professional" use. The new panavision lenses would seem to make the idea more palatable to high end productions.

 

[Erich Roland]

Better, better, best

Better, better, best

"Grass is always greener...."

...

People are always looking for the better..... (fill in the blank).... Secret color sauce, the best lens, the best camera, the best lamp, filter, etc. It would be a shame if there actually was a hidden secret sauce that makes all your images beautiful because then it would take something away from those who have the talent or put in the energy and time to learn how to create better images. Look for your particular talent and the technology will follow. These days image capture is of such high quality, what is "better" can be very subjective.

 

[Jarred Land]

One of the things I haven't noticed in the discussion is that in addition to Panavision sort of validating the Red technology it also validates the idea of using lenses with internal focus and iris motors that can be controlled through the camera ala the old Birger mount, current Red Canon mount and the optitek controller. .

I am with you Michael. I personally am a huge proponent for internal lens motors. So much so, that DXL would not exist without that being part of the program.

I hope all other cinema lens manufacturers are paying attention, because 1972 called and they kinda want their iris rods back.

 

[jordan levy]

I am with you Michael. I personally am a huge proponent for internal lens motors. So much so, that DXL would not exist without that being part of the program.

I hope all other cinema lens manufacturers are paying attention, because 1972 called and they kinda want their iris rods back.

wow. any chance you guys will make a traditional hand controller that works with the new wifi systems to just control focus, iris and rec start/stop.
my AC's wont touch an ipad
so we still have to rig an mdr on the camera every time.