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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Here it is...

Nice render. Looking forward to tame the real beast when it's out! :-)
 
Jarred Land said:
You are correct sir.... Adding EDL/Conform support to REDCINE-X will be a somewhat easy task for the 3rd party guys... that's the way we are designing it.

That way everyone wins :)
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Jarred,

I'm still not convinced. EDL / XML support is not a big deal based on your statements and with that the team has full control of the shoot to post on their own which is not an overstatement.

When people try out other workarounds people find it difficult to understand the workflow which should have been avoided by adding support for atleast XML support which every NLE from FCP to Avid to Adobe support.

Why not reconsider and implement the import / export of sharing XML between NLEs.
 
Whilst this is pure speculation, I reckon Red might be contracted to Assimilate not to release an application that allows people to conform Red footage, and as part of said contract Red got the original RedCine application in return. A conform app would afterall negate the need for Scratch Lite and as a free application not only compete but completely eradicate.

As such by releasing an application based on plugins Red can in essence bypass the contract because it is not THEY who are developing a conform app but a third party who is developing it instead for it to work in conjunction with the Redcine-X app. Just in the same way crimson worked with the original RedCine but far more economically and intuitively.

I don't think anyone should worry about RedCine-X not having any particular features... I'm sure they will all come in time and work seamlessly at some point. The app looks great and I look forward to using.

Paul
 
A conform application is very different that a pull list selection and "get my dailies ready" type application... whether it be for offline proxy or final master grade sources. There are very different expectations when using conform depending on project, program, user, deliverables, etc.

No one company owns the rights to be the "conform" they earn it. And conform is not tied to a format.

Michael
 
Is avid (other than DS) ever going to be able to take the R3D's in natively? Or will the files always be required to be transcoded?
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Being a public company, we can't speak to future plans that go beyond quarter boundaries. There is work we have to do to enable native, but the AMA work we did sets the groundwork for this type of "link to" native format editing.

Michael
 
Shane Betts said:
Does that R3D output option mean that it writes to the RSX file only? Allowing a grade to be applied without a render process? Assuming here that FCP or PP will be able to play those R3D's in the timeline with the updated look via Red Rocket would mean that we could potentially grade and output without the need to ever go beyond R3D's. No renders, no DPX's, no Quicktimes. That would be brilliant!
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I've been following this thread since the announcement, and I have to say, I think Shane is right on the money!

Why do you need EDLs and XMLs if you can do a "one light" in REDCINE-X (outputting to RSX behind the scenes), edit R3Ds natively in your chosen NLE (which I'm sure is going to become the norm on Avid, FCP, Vegas, etc. once all the software manufacturers implement the SDK that talks to the RED ROCKET), then grade natively using the R3Ds in your preferred Colour Grading Suite.

I'm sure that's what RED is gearing towards. Creating software that outputs EDLs and XMLs that work nicely with a range of different NLEs is really hard work. Each piece of software handles EDLs and XMLs slightly differently, and there are a ton of quirks and workarounds to get everything to talk to one another. That's way there's no real free alternative to Automatic Duck - and also the reason why it costs so much.

Every time Apple releases an update to Final Cut, Avid releases an update to Media Composer, Sony releases an update to Vegas, etc. extensive testing needs to be done to make sure that the EDLs and XMLs are still generated exactly the same way. This is way too much work for RED to do. However - I'm sure that Automatic Duck will jump on board this bandwagon, and build a fantastic (yet pricey) plugin for REDCINE-X to get XML/EDLs in and out of it.

So Shane - I agree! I think RED is really just building an fancy looking interface to manage the meta-data of R3D files. As you said, that way there's no rendering, no doubling up, everything can be done in real-time, etc.

REDCINE was always meant to be a "rushes grading" tool as far as I'm concerned. It was never designed for the final grade, as there are plenty of other more powerful tools out there on the market.

So I think RED's proposed workflow is:

1. Shoot on RED. Capture R3Ds to hard drive or card.
2. Transfer and backup.
3. Perform a "one light" grade on the original R3Ds. This is non-destructive, as it just creates an RSX file.
4. Open up the R3D files NATIVELY in your chosen NLE. The NLE reads the RSX file to give the footage a "look". Thanks to the RED ROCKET this "look" is applied in real-time, so no need to render or wait.
5. Export out an EDL/XML (depending on your NLE).
6. Import the EDL/XML into your chosen Colour Grading Package. Link the media to your R3D files.
7. Colour grade away! The RSX meta-data should all transfer over, so at least you have a starting point. Thanks again to the RED ROCKET, things will be quite fast!
8. Export to whatever you want, and you're done!

Of course, at the MOMENT this isn't really possible, as not many NLEs support native R3D files, let alone RSX compatibility. However! I think this will all suddenly change when the RED ROCKET hits the market. Everyone software manufacturer will want to support it, and therefore will have to fully implement the RED SDK.

Backwards compatibility is nice, but as always it comes with a price. If you want to go down a traditional film offline/DPX work-flow, then obviously you've got money, so purchasing Crimson Workflow is hardly going to be that big of a deal!

Once the R3D format is more stable and consistent (at the moment it's a bit like HTML - the standard keeps on changing as the developers think up cool new things to do and include), and Scarlet is all worked out technology wise (because lets be honest - at the moment, I don't think anyone has a firm idea of exactly how everything is going to work - it's still all a bit of fun in the lab!), I can certainly see iMovie and it's competition natively support R3Ds.

That all said... this is just my opinion. I know a lot of people seem to be really dying to have EDL/XML support in REDCINE, and I can certainly feel your pain. But thinking LONG TERM for a second - I think RED is really changing everything! They're turning traditional post production work-flows on their head, so we just need to all start thinking a little bit more outside the box.

Hard drives are cheap. Being non-destructive is vital. Everyone seems to have more time than money these days. I think RED knows this, and is SLOWLY addressing the problem. These things just take a little time...

My 2c.
 
Also... While I'm here, I should also mention that I really loved the REDCINE-X "sizzle" video. It's certainly got me excited. The interface looks fantastic! Very slick, very user friendly, very RED. On my blog I've recently posted an article about my prediction that Apple will soon introduce touch-screens across the whole product line. I should note that this prediction is based on no hard evidence or anything resembling facts - but it's fun to guess! Anyway... I think REDCINE-X would certainly play nicely with a touch screen. Imagine having an iMac on set - no keyboard, no mouse - just a sexy touch screen that the director and DOP can just walk up to at their leisure and look at previously shot footage. Better yet, imagine a MacPro with a RED ROCKET card and a Apple LED Cinema Touch Display. And while I'm day dreaming, I wonder if RED is also working on a REDCINE-X for iPhone? Seems like the next logical step!

Regardless... We're certainly in an exciting time to be working in the media biz!
 
Chris Hocking said:
Imagine having an iMac on set - no keyboard, no mouse - just a sexy touch screen that the director and DOP can just walk up to at their leisure and look at previously shot footage.
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I don't want to drag this post off topic, but just one thing - why would anyone want a touchscreen on a computer like an iMac? Try holding your arms up to a normal computer screen for 30 seconds, and then think of how much 'fun' interacting with a computer like that for more than a few minutes would be... Having the screen flat on the desk would be far easier, but that's just a recipe for neck and back problems...
 
MichaelP said:
...the AMA work we did sets the groundwork for this type of "link to" native format editing.

Michael
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Avid should move fast on implementing native editing... transcoding to AVID's mxf formats is a pain:frown: Hope DS will be the base for the new AVID.

Avid is a dead horse if it sticks to those format. You don't edit any more video (pal/ntsc) but picture content that most of them are not bound to any standard.

Patrick
 
Patrick Tresch said:
Avid should move fast on implementing native editing... transcoding to AVID's mxf formats is a pain:frown: Hope DS will be the base for the new AVID.

Avid is a dead horse if it sticks to those format. You don't edit any more video (pal/ntsc) but picture content that most of them are not bound to any standard.

Patrick
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While I agree that native editing is needed, I would argue the word "standard". Avid uses standard MXF format for source metadata and DNxHD is a SMPTE standard (VC-3) giving broadcasters and content owners piece of mind that they in years to come will be able to access the content. SD and HD are still deliverables and formats being used everyday. That's what SMPTE standards like DPX are used and archived. No one wants to have their content beholdant to a non standard format preventing them from repurposing their content when needed.

Also unknown is the RED ROCKET pipeline for doing more than one decode/debayer - even a simple dissolve required two streams to be decoded and debayered - can multiple passes go through the card? Or is it a single stream decode/debayer where only effects like color correction etc, can be applied? Player pipelines, and VFX get quite complex. We won't know until we see a card and an SDK how much this will add to the everyday editing process. Since once cannot render R3D, if a render does need to happen because of a complex sequence, what is it rendered to? Then how does the NLE behave with different formats mixed in with a debayer/decode process on the hardware where the others may be done on the CPU? Things are not that simple unless you are making a simple one layer, single stream player type application for dailies viewing, creation, or screening purposes.

Editors expect fluidity, real time for multiple layers. Gone are the days of simple straight cut editing. My last feature which looks like nothing but straight cuts and dissolved had over 100 VFX for corrective and creative timing of the image. We will know what RED ROCKET has to offer about the same time everyone else does.

Michael
 
I love RED.... they make simple the future!!!
 
Chris Hocking said:
That's way there's no real free alternative to Automatic Duck - and also the reason why it costs so much....
I'm sure that Automatic Duck will jump on board this bandwagon, and build a fantastic (yet pricey) plugin for REDCINE-X to get XML/EDLs in and out of it....obviously you've got money, so purchasing Crimson Workflow is hardly going to be that big of a deal!
....Hard drives are cheap. Being non-destructive is vital. Everyone seems to have more time than money these days.
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So let me get this straight. You feel that Automatic Duck's products (which are under $500) are "pricey," and you also feel that Crimson (which is under $200) requires that "you've got money," and that hard drives are affordable because they're "cheap." Yet, you seemingly have no problem whatsoever suggesting that everyone should have a Red Rocket card - which will cost $5000 (more if you need the breakout box). So I guess your feeling is that everything is too expensive for "normal people" like yourself unless the manufacturer happens to be Red, in which case it's completely affordable, regardless of the actual price. Is that about right?
 
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