Epic-W

[Nick Morrison]

I think it seems like too many cameras already and it runs the risk of becoming comical. The Weapon MG in my mind is the Epic W. If you make a 6K DSMC2 that is 10K less than MG then you may as well forget the MG as what possible spec differential could there be at that point to justify the cost? Shave off a little compression etc..No pro rez. The MG already only does 2K pro rez. The body material is not worth the money. The Scarlet is already screamingly competitive at 20K less. So pretty soon the line-up would start to cannibalize itself and implode.

Said this like, kinda agree also.

Scarlet-W is A TON OF CAMERA for $10K.

And Weapon MAG is the new Epic-W, a kinda agree.

Maybe this is just a new EPIC MX/Dragon trade in program.

Who knows!!

 

[jordan levy]

I think it seems like too many cameras already and it runs the risk of becoming comical. The Weapon MG in my mind is the Epic W. If you make a 6K DSMC2 that is 10K less than MG then you may as well forget the MG as what possible spec differential could there be at that point to justify the cost? Shave off a little compression etc..No pro rez. The MG already only does 2K pro rez. The body material is not worth the money. The Scarlet is already screamingly competitive at 20K less. So pretty soon the line-up would start to cannibalize itself and implode.

that's what i was thinking too, just the fact the scarlet-w is a thing i thought was too much.
everyone ive ever seen use a scarlet, all bts guys, have always used a ef mount anyways.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Unless Epic-W was 6K and limited to 48fps....who knows....

 

[jordan levy]

Said this like, kinda agree also.

Scarlet-W is A TON OF CAMERA for $10K.

And Weapon MAG is the new Epic-W, a kinda agree.

Maybe this is just a new EPIC MX/Dragon trade in program.

Who knows!!

yeah, hopefully its just a trade in program that they can get into low end weapon or scarlet-w

 

[Nick Morrison]

yeah, hopefully its just a trade in program that they can get into low end weapon or scarlet-w

Yup I can totally see that happening.

I'm gunna wait till NAB either way, see what this is. If there is no Epic-W, I'll happily stick to my Scarlet-W order.

 

[jordan levy]

Yup I can totally see that happening.

I'm gunna wait till NAB either way, see what this is. If there is no Epic-W, I'll happily stick to my Scarlet-W order.

though you should have your scarlet-w in the next week or so right? or are you purposely delaying it.
we ordered the raven with like 2 minutes of each other!
so i know you are high up on the list.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

I think it's going to be ONE camera. In the $20K price range. Not multiple cameras (they already have six!).

To clarify, I meant --
Weapon/Stealth - 8K
Epic W - 6K
Scarlet W - 5K

All DSMC 2 bodies. With ability to upgrade from Scarlet W all the way up to Weapon/Stealth.

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

I'm still hoping the Epic-W will address the elephant in the room. But it would have some sort of ripple effect I guess.

RED has gotten cred for not holding back cameras. There is a consensus that RED typically tries to eek everything out of a camera that they can.

Well, with Scarlet W we see what RED can deliver today and at what price. It's interesting to note that previous generation Scarlet Dragon already had a 6k sensor—and that the sensor size in itself had minimum (if any?) impact on sales price. At the very least, RED should be able to deliver a 6k version of the Scarlet W (the Epic W) with no other difference than sensor size. It could do basic film frame rates at 6k full frame and needn't cost much more than Scarlet W. Obviously it would cost more, but I'm saying RED would be free to set a price they see fit. They could be as aggressive as with Scarlet W, if they wanted. And on at least some level, I'm sure they want that very much.

This is where they run into a bit of a snag. The prices won't quite add up with the top models.

It makes sense that RED wants to push their high end cameras when they are flying off the shelves faster than they can build them. I've said that before: I'm sure early adopters accept a way higher price to be the first using new tech. It's not only about the camera. Early owners might make industry connections to last them a lifetime—easily worth 10 cameras.

But what comes then? Will RED drop a price performance 6k DSMC[SUP]2[/SUP] camera because they can, or will they protect their more expensive models?

 

[brett ogden]

What if it's a 5k Dragon sensor (same as Scarlet-w) but with 4k prores? So an upgrade & downgrade versus MG specs? Just a thought.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

I'm still hoping the Epic-W will address the elephant in the room. But it would have some sort of ripple effect I guess.

RED has gotten cred for not holding back cameras. There is a consensus that RED typically tries to eek everything out of a camera that they can.

Well, with Scarlet W we see what RED can deliver today and at what price. It's interesting to note that previous generation Scarlet Dragon already had a 6k sensor—and that the sensor size in itself had minimum (if any?) impact on sales price. At the very least, RED should be able to deliver a 6k version of the Scarlet W (the Epic W) with no other difference than sensor size. It could do basic film frame rates at 6k full frame and needn't cost much more than Scarlet W. Obviously it would cost more, but I'm saying RED would be free to set a price they see fit. They could be as aggressive as with Scarlet W, if they wanted. And on at least some level, I'm sure they want that very much.

This is where they run into a bit of a snag. The prices won't quite add up with the top models.

It makes sense that RED wants to push their high end cameras when they are flying off the shelves faster than they can build them. I've said that before: I'm sure early adopters accept a way higher price to be the first using new tech. It's not only about the camera. Early owners might make industry connections to last them a lifetime—easily worth 10 cameras.

But what comes then? Will RED drop a price performance 6k DSMC[SUP]2[/SUP] camera because they can, or will they protect their more expensive models?

RED needs to define a new baseline of what will exist in common in ALL models of a lineup of DSMC2 RED cameras (5K minimum resolution, 48FPS min, ProRes/DNxHD proxies, etc). It's time to do that now. The world has changed significantly and the competition has moved fast and furious.

Scarlet-W, EPIC-W, and Weapon/Stealth should all have a new baseline of functionality.

As for Raven, I don't know much about it, but assume it sits as an entry-level camera and so can afford to have a different baseline for itself.

 

[Matt Hall]

One way to think of it is that Raven is that baseline you're talking about. All of the other cameras in the lineup can do what Raven can do and more.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

One way to think of it is that Raven is that baseline you're talking about. All of the other cameras in the lineup can do what Raven can do and more.

I just went and looked into the Raven specs. With its "full capabilities of RED DRAGON" and "weapon-compatible accessories" (i.e. DSMC 2 body), it pushes the EPIC Dragon below the baseline. And having upgraded to DRAGON I never expected my camera would be lower than the least of the lineup (in several important ways -- I know the fact that it is not in other ways).

I think that's what the EPIC-W convo is about. To place the EPIC Dragon folks at the right place in the lineup. Or atleast I hope so.

 

[Nick Morrison]

I just went and looked into the Raven specs. With its "full capabilities of RED DRAGON" and "weapon-compatible accessories" (i.e. DSMC 2 body), it pushes the EPIC Dragon below the baseline. And having upgraded to DRAGON I never expected my camera would be lower than the least of the lineup (in several important ways -- I know the fact that it is not in other ways).

I think that's what the EPIC-W convo is about. To place the EPIC Dragon folks at the right place in the lineup. Or atleast I hope so.

There is no way RAVEN is better than Epic Dragon. 6K vs 4K.

6K is twice the resolution of 4K. Twice.

 

[Phil Holland]

baseline of what will exist in common in ALL models of a lineup of DSMC2 RED

This more or less at a glance provides what's in common and not in common in regards to the feature sets of the various DSMC[SUP]2[/SUP] models.

RED DSMC[SUP]2[/SUP] Camera Line-Up One Sheet

I whipped up a RED DSMC[SUP]2[/SUP] Camera Line-Up One Sheet. This is a quick ways to see the difference between Weapon camera models and compare feature sets across the new DSMC[SUP]2[/SUP] cameras. I'll be updating this as relevant information arrives.



- link to higher resolution version

 

[Sergio Perez]

Ultimately, as a very, very happy Epic Dragon owner (DSMC1), I would very much like to stay on the Red Bandwagon, but can only contemplate an upgrade to the next step (that would mean a Weapon body and the next generation of sensor, may it be Vista 8K or a new different name). Unfortunately its so out of the financial range right now that I might stay on my trusty and stunning 2029 "Lilau" for a couple more years until the technology becomes more in reach for us indies. But the current line up is just absolutely ground breaking, the Raven and Scarlet Weapon are better cameras at a glimpse of the price of my Epic MX (prior Dragon upgrade). This is unbelievable and a true step on the democratisation of high quality image capture.

 

[Wil Wong]

Yeah, like Serge, I love my Epic Dragon but I'm not sure financially I'm able to switch to a Epic-W unless it was like $5000 upgrade and remained 6K and similar/better specs.

There is no real reason to upgrade (for those that don't need pro res) unless the price was low. For the upgrade price, it might make more sense merely to buy a raven.

Still, I rather 1 upgraded camera then have 2 cameras (for what I do) AND it's in RED's best interest that we upgrade as we would buy more peripherals, stay current with software and technology and continue to spread the latest and greatest experience with clients. They don't have to try and maintain 2 form factors and software/hardware limitations.

If RED tried to offer a discount like it did the Scarlet-W, I Don't think that would fly unless it was huge (but then why even offer or create an in-between camera anyhow).

If nothing, 6K Weapon Magnesium is Epic-W. What more or less can it be?! Anything less would look odd beside Raven and Scarlet-W. It won't be anything more then Weapon. Perhaps it's a different beast altogether who knows...well, Jarred...

 

[James Bendkowski]

My speculation is that it'll be the stock camera for RED's 8k masterpiece sensor once it's able to be produced in bigger batches (hence the fact that the Epic-W didn't come out with the Raven and the Scarlet-W).

As someone mentioned on the original thread, the Epic has always been the highest performing RED in the line-up, so I reckon Weapon will remain at 6k and Epic-W will house the 8k sensor.

I also reckon we'll be offered an upgrade much in the way Scarlet owners are offered money off the Scarlet-W for owning one; it wont be a trade-in basis

As usual though, just my 2 cents

 

[Matthew Quinn]

My speculation is that it'll be the stock camera for RED's 8k masterpiece sensor once it's able to be produced in bigger batches (hence the fact that the Epic-W didn't come out with the Raven and the Scarlet-W).

As someone mentioned on the original thread, the Epic has always been the highest performing RED in the line-up, so I reckon Weapon will remain at 6k and Epic-W will house the 8k sensor.

I also reckon we'll be offered an upgrade much in the way Scarlet owners are offered money off the Scarlet-W for owning one; it wont be a trade-in basis z

As usual though, just my 2 cents

this theory is a little off considering the quote from Jarred is talking about the epic MX not being left behind.. surely if people could afford the 8k sensor they would have gone for the dragon upgrade..this must be something else.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

There is no way RAVEN is better than Epic Dragon. 6K vs 4K.

6K is twice the resolution of 4K. Twice.

I know that, which is why I said, "in several important ways". So in my view the fact that RAVEN is DSMC 2 is one of the ways Raven beats the EPIC Dragon. That's today. Moving forward, RAVEN has the ability to get future updates that will only be available to the new form factor and boards. EPIC Dragon will not.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

This more or less at a glance provides what's in common and not in common in regards to the feature sets of the various DSMC[SUP]2[/SUP] models.

Thanks Phil. Great chart!

Infact, this would demonstrate my point in a compelling way if you just add EPIC Dragon to this chart. Immediately, you'll see that Raven beats it in many ways today, and moving forward, RAVEN has a growth path in terms of modules and what not, while EPIC Dragon does not.

Also, when I say "reset the baseline across the lineup", I mean that RED now has to rethink what the lineup should be (simplify) and what the minimum baseline should be. Just as an example, proxies (DNxHD, ProRes) could be made part of the minimum baseline. Where the cameras differ can be on resolution/max frame rates, sensor options (monochrome), and the modules can require certain models (due to data transfer/processing requirements and what not).

Hope that communicates my thinking more clearly.