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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Dragon upgrades

Amen

Brant Hadfield said:
Betrayed? There's not going to be a lick of difference between footage shot in Epic Dragon, Scarlet Dragon 5k, or Weapon at that Res. Buy the new $500 pro res recorder from Black Magic, spend the other $24,500 on some lenses. Seriously. People need to stop chasing K's. There's more to this art. We are getting to the point where the reel is really the tie breaker. Not another 2000 pixels.
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Jagger Christian said:
--------------------------

I'm sorry but for someone that just scrambled & paid to upgrade a couple weeks ago to Scarlet Dragon based entirely on the above statement, I feel completely let down and betrayed by what's been announced today at NAB. It definitely hasn't been 'worth it'.
Click to expand...

It kills me to think that you feel betrayed. Given that the post was referencing the new camera, for all of you that upgraded before NAB your upgrade path from Dragon to Weapon is significantly better than anyone that upgrades or purchases a Dragon after NAB. For those that are looking to upgrade to Weapon, with the credit of $5000 plus the value of your trade in makes the upgrade fee almost cancel itself out. Add the $2500 NAB week credit for the upgrade and it becomes even better. Upgrading is always an option.

Also, If you upgraded to Scarlet Dragon you now have the chance to go forward, which if you remember previously there was no option for Scarlet Dragons to move forward.
 
Jarred Land said:
Also, If you upgraded to Scarlet Dragon you now have the chance to go forward, which if you remember previously there was no option for Scarlet Dragons to move forward.
Click to expand...

This is HUGE! And now it even includes the possibility of stepping up to Epic Dragon as an interim jump. No way this is any sort of "disappointment" or "betrayal."
 
Jarred Land said:
It kills me to think that you feel betrayed. Given that the post was referencing the new camera, for all of you that upgraded before NAB your upgrade path from Dragon to Weapon is significantly better than anyone that upgrades or purchases a Dragon after NAB. For those that are looking to upgrade to Weapon, with the credit of $5000 plus the value of your trade in makes the upgrade fee almost cancel itself out. Add the $2500 NAB week credit for the upgrade and it becomes even better. Upgrading is always an option.

Also, If you upgraded to Scarlet Dragon you now have the chance to go forward, which if you remember previously there was no option for Scarlet Dragons to move forward.
Click to expand...


Maybe I'm not running the numbers in my head correctly and if I stand corrected then I'm the one who is at fault and I apologize. Maybe my expectations were unrealistic? I could have sold my Scarlet MX Package for around $7000 (a guess based on prices I've seen). Taken my $9500 (Scarlet to Scarlet Dragon) that just paid and with that and gotten $5000 accessories credit (this NAB week only) for a total of $21500 towards Weapon with new accessories that I would have to buy anyway because they won't work with Weapon. As far as I know, I'm only getting $10,000 total towards a Weapon from Scarlet Dragon ($5,000 trade in credit & $5,000 in equipment credit). I don't know how to justify the numbers in my head. Again maybe I'm missing something, if I am, then I'm sorry.
 
Jagger Christian said:
Maybe I'm not running the numbers in my head correctly and if I stand corrected then I'm the one who is at fault and I apologize. Maybe my expectations were unrealistic? I could have sold my Scarlet MX Package for around $7000 (a guess based on prices I've seen). Taken my $9500 (Scarlet to Scarlet Dragon) that just paid and with that and gotten $5000 accessories credit (this NAB week only) for a total of $21500 towards Weapon with new accessories that I would have to buy anyway because they won't work with Weapon. As far as I know, I'm only getting $10,000 total towards a Weapon from Scarlet Dragon ($5,000 trade in credit & $5,000 in equipment credit). I don't know how to justify the numbers in my head. Again maybe I'm missing something, if I am, then I'm sorry.
Click to expand...

Your numbers are accurate, but you'd still be $15K short of a camera (of a Weapon).

At least now, you've upgraded to Scarlet Dragon, which IMHO is arguably the best indie cam on the market - you went from 3K 48fps, to 5K 48fps (at HD)!

And...you've earned a 2500 pre NAB credit towards Weapon, and 5000 accessories credit. That 7500 pretty much almost negates the 9500 upgrade fee.

Seen another way...
 
Jarred Land said:
It kills me to think that you feel betrayed. Given that the post was referencing the new camera, for all of you that upgraded before NAB your upgrade path from Dragon to Weapon is significantly better than anyone that upgrades or purchases a Dragon after NAB. For those that are looking to upgrade to Weapon, with the credit of $5000 plus the value of your trade in makes the upgrade fee almost cancel itself out. Add the $2500 NAB week credit for the upgrade and it becomes even better. Upgrading is always an option.

Also, If you upgraded to Scarlet Dragon you now have the chance to go forward, which if you remember previously there was no option for Scarlet Dragons to move forward.
Click to expand...

You're a good man Mr. Land. Thanks for clarifying, and thanks for caring...in your genuine, immediate way. You are a refreshing CEO.

Congrats on Weapon. Looking forward to seeing what everyone does with it!
 
Jagger Christian said:
Maybe I'm not running the numbers in my head correctly and if I stand corrected then I'm the one who is at fault and I apologize. Maybe my expectations were unrealistic? I could have sold my Scarlet MX Package for around $7000 (a guess based on prices I've seen). Taken my $9500 (Scarlet to Scarlet Dragon) that just paid and with that and gotten $5000 accessories credit (this NAB week only) for a total of $21500 towards Weapon with new accessories that I would have to buy anyway because they won't work with Weapon. As far as I know, I'm only getting $10,000 total towards a Weapon from Scarlet Dragon ($5,000 trade in credit & $5,000 in equipment credit). I don't know how to justify the numbers in my head. Again maybe I'm missing something, if I am, then I'm sorry.
Click to expand...

If you went your suggested route, even if you received a fantastic price of your camera in the used market, you also would of sold your camera and be completely without camera from whenever you sold it to whenever your Weapon number is called. That value depends on how often you use/rent your camera.... but it is a consideration.
 
Jagger Christian said:
Maybe I'm not running the numbers in my head correctly and if I stand corrected then I'm the one who is at fault and I apologize. Maybe my expectations were unrealistic? I could have sold my Scarlet MX Package for around $7000 (a guess based on prices I've seen). Taken my $9500 (Scarlet to Scarlet Dragon) that just paid and with that and gotten $5000 accessories credit (this NAB week only) for a total of $21500 towards Weapon with new accessories that I would have to buy anyway because they won't work with Weapon. As far as I know, I'm only getting $10,000 total towards a Weapon from Scarlet Dragon ($5,000 trade in credit & $5,000 in equipment credit). I don't know how to justify the numbers in my head. Again maybe I'm missing something, if I am, then I'm sorry.
Click to expand...

As Jarred said, rather than guessing at selling for a high (current) price, it makes much more practical sense to think about what your camera would be worth when the time comes to buy Weapon - maybe 12-24 months from now?. I seriously doubt it would be anywhere near $7K. In fact, I doubt you'd have netted $7K now. Don't forget transfer fees, shipping, etc. And increased sales tax on a new Weapon vs. the upgrade. All these "little" things start to chip away at your logic.
 
Terry VerHaar said:
As Jarred said, rather than guessing at selling for a high (current) price, it makes much more practical sense to think about what your camera would be worth when the time comes to buy Weapon - maybe 12-24 months from now?. I seriously doubt it would be anywhere near $7K. In fact, I doubt you'd have netted $7K now. Don't forget transfer fees, shipping, etc. And increased sales tax on a new Weapon vs. the upgrade. All these "little" things start to chip away at your logic.
Click to expand...

Oh wow. Tax on a new Weapon. FORGOT ABOUT THAT. That's another 3K!!!
 
Nick Morrison said:
Oh wow. Tax on a new Weapon. FORGOT ABOUT THAT. That's another 3K!!!
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Haha -yeah, I thought about that when I did my Dragon upgrade recently. I was hoping an "upgrade" was considered a non-taxable service rather than a taxable product. No such luck. LOL

But it can make a difference when you sell old and buy new, rather than trade in.
 
Nick Morrison said:
Your numbers are accurate, but you'd still be $15K short of a camera (of a Weapon).

At least now, you've upgraded to Scarlet Dragon, which IMHO is arguably the best indie cam on the market - you went from 3K 48fps, to 5K 48fps (at HD)!

And...you've earned a 2500 pre NAB credit towards Weapon, and 5000 accessories credit. That 7500 pretty much almost negates the 9500 upgrade fee.

Seen another way...
Click to expand...

Yes, but I was debating which way to go from Scarlet MX, because in the end Weapon was my planned destination eventually. I know that I'd still be short $15,000, but I would have figured it out because I wanted to stay with RED for the 'long haul' and not stop at Scarlet Dragon. Thus choosing the best way to carry on for the long term financially was most important to me. A difference of $11,500 is huge going forward (to me anyways).

1) Sell Scarlet and buy Weapon new or 2) go to Weapon through upgrades to Scarlet to Scarlet Dragon ($9500) OR Scarlet MX to Epic MX to Epic ($19,000). If I would have known that I could have saved $11,500 based on selling my Scarlet MX not taken the upgrade path, I would have done that for sure. I just thought I'd get more than RED is offering to upgrade from Scarlet Dragon to Weapon. Thus my disappointment. But nothing was promised to me. It's my fault if my 'faith' and exceptions were out of whack, like so many others seem to be saying on REDuser, that are in my 'boat'. I never expected RED to carry me along, I just thought it would be better than it turned out to be and I hate that I can't reconcile it within myself, because I based all my assumptions (my fault) and choices on things I was reading from RED management on REDuser. I'm NOT saying I was misled in ANYWAY. I just thought the upgrade path was going to be 'best' way to go. Thus the moral of the story, I made incorrect assumptions and guesses. It was my mistake that unfortunately has changed my long term future with a company and a product that I love because I wasn't smart enough to make the 'right' move for my particular needs. Just a very sad day for me... (and it's no one's fault but my own)
 
Jarred - since you are in the answering mood ;o) - can you confirm that all three cameras (Scarlet, Epic and Weapon Dragons) by being part of the same current sensor family - will be eligible to upgrade to the next sensor technology beyond Dragon in one way or another?

Thank you...
 
Jagger Christian said:
Yes, but I was debating which way to go from Scarlet MX, because in the end Weapon was my planned destination eventually. I know that I'd still be short $15,000, but I would have figured it out because I wanted to stay with RED for the 'long haul' and not stop at Scarlet Dragon. Thus choosing the best way to carry on for the long term financially was most important to me. A difference of $11,500 is huge going forward (to me anyways).

1) Sell Scarlet and buy Weapon new or 2) go to Weapon through upgrades to Scarlet to Scarlet Dragon ($9500) OR Scarlet MX to Epic MX to Epic ($19,000). If I would have known that I could have saved $11,500 based on selling my Scarlet MX not taken the upgrade path, I would have done that for sure. I just thought I'd get more than RED is offering to upgrade from Scarlet Dragon to Weapon. Thus my disappointment. But nothing was promised to me. It's my fault if my 'faith' and exceptions were out of whack, like so many others seem to be saying on REDuser, that are in my 'boat'. I never expected RED to carry me along, I just thought it would be better than it turned out to be and I hate that I can't reconcile it within myself, because I based all my assumptions (my fault) and choices on things I was reading from RED management on REDuser. I'm NOT saying I was misled in ANYWAY. I just thought the upgrade path was going to be 'best' way to go. Thus the moral of the story, I made incorrect assumptions and guesses. It was my mistake that unfortunately has changed my long term future with a company and a product that I love because I wasn't smart enough to make the 'right' move. Just a very sad day for me...
Click to expand...

You know you can upgrade to Epic Dragon now right?

That path just got opened...Scarlet D to Epic D...which I think is kinda awesome...
 
Jagger Christian said:
Yes, but I was debating which way to go from Scarlet MX, because in the end Weapon was my planned destination eventually. I know that I'd still be short $15,000, but I would have figured it out because I wanted to stay with RED for the 'long haul' and not stop at Scarlet Dragon. Thus choosing the best way to carry on for the long term financially was most important to me. A difference of $11,500 is huge going forward (to me anyways).

1) Sell Scarlet and buy Weapon new or 2) go to Weapon through upgrades to Scarlet to Scarlet Dragon ($9500) OR Scarlet MX to Epic MX to Epic ($19,000). If I would have known that I could have saved $11,500 based on selling my Scarlet MX not taken the upgrade path, I would have done that for sure. I just thought I'd get more than RED is offering to upgrade from Scarlet Dragon to Weapon. Thus my disappointment. But nothing was promised to me. It's my fault if my 'faith' and exceptions were out of whack, like so many others seem to be saying on REDuser, that are in my 'boat'. I never expected RED to carry me along, I just thought it would be better than it turned out to be and I hate that I can't reconcile it within myself, because I based all my assumptions (my fault) and choices on things I was reading from RED management on REDuser. I'm NOT saying I was misled in ANYWAY. I just thought the upgrade path was going to be 'best' way to go. Thus the moral of the story, I made incorrect assumptions and guesses. It was my mistake that unfortunately has changed my long term future with a company and a product that I love because I wasn't smart enough to make the 'right' move. Just a very sad day for me...
Click to expand...

As far as I can tell, I am in exactly your boat, but I can't for the life of me follow your logic. Are you suggesting you would have sold your Scarlet now (for $$?) and waited to buy a new Weapon? Would you have simply put down a deposit now and waited for many months until you could buy a new one? Not shoot in the interim or ?? And all of your pricing assumptions? What about accessory credits and the early bonus? Are you factoring those in?
 
Nick Morrison said:
You know you can upgrade to Epic Dragon now right?

That path just got opened...Scarlet D to Epic D...which I think is kinda awesome...
Click to expand...

Indeed. Which was not an option before. The Scarlet Dragon actually just became more valuable...
 
Nick Morrison said:
You know you can upgrade to Epic Dragon now right?

That path just got opened...Scarlet D to Epic D...which I think is kinda awesome...
Click to expand...

Nick, where are you at? Scarlet D and thinking of going to Epic D? What would your long term outlook be going that path yourself?
 
Terry VerHaar said:
As far as I can tell, I am in exactly your boat, but I can't for the life of me follow your logic. Are you suggesting you would have sold your Scarlet now (for $$?) and waited to buy a new Weapon? Would you have simply put down a deposit now and waited for many months until you could buy a new one? Not shoot in the interim or ?? And all of your pricing assumptions? What about accessory credits and the early bonus? Are you factoring those in?
Click to expand...

Here's my logic... 1) Sell Scarlet ($7000? have pretty good package with bunch of power, media & modules that can't be used anyway with Weapon). 2) Not spend the $9500 I just did to upgrade my Scarlet to Scarlet Dragon. 3) Put a deposit down (this week only) to get $5000 accessory credit. 4) Use one of my other cameras in the interim, friends cameras, or rent, until I receive Weapon.

For me (and only speaking for myself), I don't make any money off my RED like others do, so I could be without it for a while. Like I said before, I made a bad call on what I thought I would get for Scarlet Dragon moving forward for my particular situation.
 
Peter Majtan said:
Jarred - since you are in the answering mood ;o) - can you confirm that all three cameras (Scarlet, Epic and Weapon Dragons) by being part of the same current sensor family - will be eligible to upgrade to the next sensor technology beyond Dragon in one way or another?

Thank you...
Click to expand...

Yes I am... sorry had to be in the booth today... ready to answer away :)

And yes.... All Dragons will be able to advance to the next round.
 
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