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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Dragon Update

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Thanks Phil. I have to say i'm not entirely comfortable with the idea that Carbons can be knocked out but not Dragon upgrades.
 
Robert Horwell said:
Thanks Phil. I have to say i'm not entirely comfortable with the idea that Carbons can be knocked out but not Dragon upgrades.
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I understand the sentiment, but they are different "production lines" and a lower yield market. Meaning there's more regular Epics to upgrade and manufacture versus the Carbons, which do have a premium cost.

Physically though, that next batch of sensors in December is going to be the stuff that goes into more bodies for sure. How many upgrades and new builds can get done before the year is out? Also, how long will the upgrade process take? Well those are going to be the questions.


I'm thinking about moving some funds around and grabbing the Epic Carbon Dragon at the moment, but it fell outside of my "original plan" of the normal upgrade. Gotta think about it. Shooing with the Carbon body and being around Probst's camera recently have made my hunger a bit more intense. There's something very "right" about the stealthy looks and weight of the ECD. I'll torture my mind on this subject this weekend.


Some interesting notes that I've made about two of the shipped Epic Carbon Dragons is that they have the newest firmware and calibration on board, which is actually going to produce slightly better results than what we've already seen from the earlier Dragon calibrations. Essentially a newer and better calibration than what I tested a couple weeks ago.
 
Hello,

A question a bit out of topic...
Isn't carbon a good heat keeper? I wonder if the heat dissipation of aluminium is not more efficient. How will the carbon body tackle the heat issue?

Pat
 
Phil Holland said:
I understand the sentiment, but they are different "production lines" and a lower yield market. Meaning there's more regular Epics to upgrade and manufacture versus the Carbons, which do have a premium cost.

Physically though, that next batch of sensors in December is going to be the stuff that goes into more bodies for sure. How many upgrades and new builds can get done before the year is out? Also, how long will the upgrade process take? Well those are going to be the questions.


I'm thinking about moving some funds around and grabbing the Epic Carbon Dragon at the moment, but it fell outside of my "original plan" of the normal upgrade. Gotta think about it. Shooing with the Carbon body and being around Probst's camera recently have made my hunger a bit more intense. There's something very "right" about the stealthy looks and weight of the ECD. I'll torture my mind on this subject this weekend.


Some interesting notes that I've made about two of the shipped Epic Carbon Dragons is that they have the newest firmware and calibration on board, which is actually going to produce slightly better results than what we've already seen from the earlier Dragon calibrations. Essentially a newer and better calibration than what I tested a couple weeks ago.
Click to expand...

Thank you for your thoughts Phil. I went for the Epic M early doors in a bid to earn a few quid before Epic X hit the market. It didn't quite work out as planned, carbon is very tempting and I can see the attraction, good luck Phil.
 
i think Red needed cash money for speed up to dragon upgrades so because of this Carbon program is all good for us.I dont think its gonna slow down usual Dragon update process but it ll help it moneywise
 
Kemalettin Sert said:
i think Red needed cash money for speed up to dragon upgrades so because of this Carbon program is all good for us.I dont think its gonna slow down usual Dragon update process but it ll help it moneywise
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seriously?...I really don't think that's anything to do with it. A few carbon orders really isn't going to produce any kind of meaningful cash injection. As Phil says it's probably down to the supply of sensors.
 
Patrick Tresch said:
Isn't carbon a good heat keeper? I wonder if the heat dissipation of aluminium is not more efficient. How will the carbon body tackle the heat issue?
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The body has a Carbon Fiber exterior and Magnesium "innards". The guts are where the heat really is generated, similar to a human body really. Magnesium has high thermal conductivity and disperses heat more efficiently than aluminum. To me though, with the new Fan Algorithms and new Fans heat and fan noise really aren't much of a factor these days. The camera is now quieter than other digital cinema cameras on the market even.

Interesting tidbit/observation. The new Magnesium PL Mount itself also seems to have a Magnesium locking ring and I think a Titanium plate for rigidity from what I can observe, could be wrong on that.


Robert Horwell said:
Thank you for your thoughts Phil. I went for the Epic M early doors in a bid to earn a few quid before Epic X hit the market. It didn't quite work out as planned, carbon is very tempting and I can see the attraction, good luck Phil.
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Well, you'll still have the advantage of upgrade priority with the Epic-M, so that to me is a sound investment.
 
Phil Holland said:
The body has a Carbon Fiber exterior and Magnesium "innards". The guts are where the heat really is generated, similar to a human body really. Magnesium has high thermal conductivity and disperses heat more efficiently than aluminum. To me though, with the new Fan Algorithms and new Fans heat and fan noise really aren't much of a factor these days. The camera is now quieter than other digital cinema cameras on the market even.
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Ok, we will see.




Pat
 
Patrick Tresch said:
Ok, we will see.
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Well. I should say that "generally speaking" the conductivity of Mg is slightly lower than Al, so in theory it generates more heat. However, I'm betting that the Mg within Carbon Dragon is a Mg alloy which likely includes aluminum. Who knows. I'm not going to be the one cutting up the bodies :) All I know it's lighter and that it's not going to produce a substantial difference in operating temperature either way. Besides that, it's a regulated internal temperature.
 
Patrick Tresch said:
Hello,

A question a bit out of topic...
Isn't carbon a good heat keeper? I wonder if the heat dissipation of aluminium is not more efficient. How will the carbon body tackle the heat issue?

Pat
Click to expand...

Actually he's right, Pat, be less conductive.
I remind you that the strength of this camera to be its lightness.
Guys I would not worry so much about having a few degrees more on the display, maybe .....
Pat, why are you so concerned about the dissipation?
I see a strength, better thermal stability inside the chassis and more controllable ventilation, also provided by extreme outside in the sun .. under the snow .. you have less conductivity from external to internal.
for example, all our Sony HDC-2400 for Broadcast have been replaced for this reason, whit carbon fiber.
 
Phil Holland said:
Well, you'll still have the advantage of upgrade priority with the Epic-M, so that to me is a sound investment.
Click to expand...


That's not actually true, Phil. At least not according to my bomb squad rep. I ordered the Dragon update on the Thursday of NAB, and it turns out that because I didn't order during the exclusive M window on Monday, I an not in the Priority 1 group.

So the priority doesn't follow my Epic-M at all, it depended on my being available to order on the first day of NAB during the "exclusive" window. I wasn't, so my Epic-M no longer has any priority.
 
D Fuller said:
That's not actually true, Phil. .... my Epic-M no longer has any priority.
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Correct.

I was under the (wrong) impression M designation WOULD give priority in upgrade queue over X but, as you say, M`s carry no weight in the upgrade line unless ordered in a small time window.
 
D Anderson said:
Correct.

I was under the (wrong) impression M designation WOULD give priority in upgrade queue over X but, as you say, M`s carry no weight in the upgrade line unless ordered in a small time window.
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I was under that impression as well. In fact, my bomb squad rep at the time gave me that impression, but it's easy to misunderstand the finer points of Red's loyalty programs.
 
luigivaltulini said:
Pat, why are you so concerned about the dissipation?
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Hello Luigi,

Well, I'm fighting heat every day (well not today as I shot outside in 5C° ;-) )

Adaptive mode took care for a stable sensor heat. More heat is easely achieved, less heat isn't.
I was wondering if in hot conditions the camera would be less "heat effective" but probably RED looked at all specifications for their top of the line camera.

Pat
 
D Anderson said:
Correct.

I was under the (wrong) impression M designation WOULD give priority in upgrade queue over X but, as you say, M`s carry no weight in the upgrade line unless ordered in a small time window.
Click to expand...

Well I wouldn't say that it's a very small of a window in reality. Several months and nothing stopping you from upgrading later once things open up to the X folks.

We've known Dragon was coming for over two years now, and while tricky to land hard numbers to service everybody's new bodies and upgrades, all should have expected it's release "at some point".
 
Phil Holland said:
Well I wouldn't say that it's a very small of a window in reality. Several months .....
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Actually my bomb squad rep said that the window lasted just 3 days. Excerpt from email below....

Regarding delivery dates, there was a 3-day priority window where customers with EPIC-M’s were able to place their pre-order early and get their cameras in at the head of the queue, but that was following the announcement of the Dragon Sensor at NAB 2013 this past April. Since that time, many orders have been placed in the queue and any new EPIC-M’s will be at the back of that line, so there is no real advantage to getting a regular EPIC at this point

Whether or not you buy a new M or have an old one you are inline with the X`s.
 
D Fuller said:
I was under that impression as well. In fact, my bomb squad rep at the time gave me that impression, but it's easy to misunderstand the finer points of Red's loyalty programs.
Click to expand...

I`m glad I didn`t dream it. Thanks for confirming this info was out there.
 
Phil Holland said:
Well I wouldn't say that it's a very small of a window in reality. Several months and nothing stopping you from upgrading later once things open up to the X folks.

We've known Dragon was coming for over two years now, and while tricky to land hard numbers to service everybody's new bodies and upgrades, all should have expected it's release "at some point".
Click to expand...

Yes, Phil, we've known the Dragon was coming for a long time. But I'm not sure what that has to do with what we're saying here.

Of course it's true that anyone with an Epic can upgrade at some point. But in post #227 you said, "Well, you'll still have the advantage of upgrade priority with the Epic-M, so that to me is a sound investment." That does not seem to be true.

The priority window where bing an Epic-M owner gave you any priority in the Dragon Queue was very short. You had to order within the exclusive Epic-M window during the first day (or two? or three?) of NAB. I really don't know how long it was, but I know that I ordered on the fourth day after the window to order opened and owning an Epic-M gives me no priority. So it was something less that the 4-day duration of NAB. It's not the end of the world, but it's not what I understood the deal to be. I understood (as you stated in post #227) that my ownership of an Epic-M gave me priority in the upgrade. I'm now told that's not true. Priority went to those Epic-M owners who were able to make the purchase (or at least the commitment to purchase) during the short window of exclusivity. I was busy then, so I don't get the priority.

Again, it's not the end of the world; I'll get the upgrade in due time, but it is a pretty confusing loyalty program. After all, it even seems to have confused you. :)
 
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