Dragon Update

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

RED is using high-performance SSD (Solid State Drives) to capture the RAW data. These are essentially high-performance equivalents of your "USB drives". These are needed as USB drives will not have enough performance (and reliability) to capture the RAW data.

....

The DSMC cameras do feature a GbE port, but even this with a bottleneck of 100 MB/s is not fast enough for capture of the RAW stream...

Why would 100MBps not be fast enough? (GbE does tend to top out around 80MBps, though) Scarlet can only do 50MBps maximum anyway... And I believe Epic's maximum is around 250MBps. USB3 can do 400+ MBps, and there are plenty of recent consumer and enterprise SSDs around that can reliably sustain >250MBps. REDMAGs were designed ~3 years ago, so current SSDs should have no trouble matching what was probably much a more difficult spec to match back then.

Of course RED will not support 3rd party media, though, but it's not so much because USB3 non-redmag SSDs wouldn't be fast enough.

 

[Tony Harris]

WOW Why thank you Peter for the full break down...sorry that I said SD when I should have said SSD my bad. I can also choose what I want to use as a backup SSD or HDD my bottom line is can we use an external port to capture raw data from the camera like the ssd cards. People always talk about what they can't do when consumer cameras can record to external drives like the sony & Arri cameras. I ask RED for a reason, no one can speak on what they can do because if it wasn't for them we wouldn't have questions to ask about a camera without limits. People talked about how 1080P was the best and 4K was crazy and couldn't be done but look at us now. Please spare me with the details of 3rd party recorders that can only pull pro res files unless there is a device that can pull the raw data. We live in a new age now soon someone will invent this device.

 

[Tony Harris]

I understand that they may not support 3rd party media now but as they move forward and our cameras get out dated why not open the door or sell a device that will connect to the camera that will allow 3rd party devices or make a 3TB red drive. Red one can record to external drives if I'm correct. I just wanted something more than each SSD card costing $1,200 for me to film. If one should fail or break I'm dead in the water without an option. Right now I'm a one card man until I can save up to drop $1,200 for another card. Please don't take this as complaining I'm just simply making a point. RED put a stop to film so don't pigeon hold us to only using ssd cards when the sky is the limit, as a Director I can only ask for what I need. If they say no then its no but I would rather hear from RED.

 

[Peter Majtan]

Why would 100MBps not be fast enough? (GbE does tend to top out around 80MBps, though)

And I believe Epic's maximum is around 250MBps.

That is why...

USB3 can do 400+ MBps
Of course RED will not support 3rd party media, though, but it's not so much because USB3 non-redmag SSDs wouldn't be fast enough.

There is no USB on any DSMC brain. There is USB on the RED ONE - but even that is only USB1, or USB2 at the most. Certainly not USB3...


I am simply answering why it is not possible to do this now. Even the Dragon update is not introducing any new data I/O capable of this. Wake up people...

:sifone: Peter

 

[Peter Majtan]

So let me get this straight. Since there is no other high-speed data I/O on any of the DSMC brains other then the RED SSD MAG slot and the GbE (which is clearly not fast enough), you are asking RED to spend time and resources to develop a DSMC module with fast enough data I/O to facilitate 3rd-party storage solutions???

Good luck with that LOL...

:sifone: Peter

 

[Tony Harris]

OK ...Question when they said that we can record to an external device how is that possible? Using what port?

 

[Peter Majtan]

OK ...Question when they said that we can record to an external device how is that possible? Using what port?

You can take the SDI / HDMI output and record it to any compatible external device.
Do you mind showing a direct quote from RED where they have stated that you can record RAW stream to an external storage?

:sifone: Peter

 

[Tony Harris]

AAAAh checkout this idea and tell me if this is crazy...Make an fake SSD card with a usb 3.0 port or whatever on the back of the card, insert it in the same slot but when the camera records to the card like normal it will flow thru the usb port to the external drive with a usb connection. Now you don't have to place a port on the camera make a connection SSD card.

 

[Peter Majtan]

AAAAh checkout this idea and tell me if this is crazy...Make an fake SSD card with a usb 3.0 port or whatever on the back of the card, insert it in the same slot but when the camera records to the card like normal it will flow thru the usb port to the external drive with a usb connection. Now you don't have to place a port on the camera make a connection SSD card.

So you are still asking RED to spend time and resources to develop a piece of HW with fast enough data I/O (I doubt that even USB3 will handle Dragon at full speed - but that is anyway irrelevant) to facilitate 3rd-party storage solutions???

Good luck with that LOL...

:sifone: Peter

 

[Tony Harris]

Red never said that you can record raw.. Through a firmware update we could record to an external device. I was looking at my old way of recording to external hdd like the JVC. All of this SSD recording came about when some one said that you can record uncompressed files using SSD cards. This was before RED came out. If this never happened I feel that we wouldn't be having this conversation because even the RED cameras would be using external drives due to no other option.

 

[Tony Harris]

Hey don't under estimate them...LOL this thing has just began. RED is on the take over and I don't have a dragon but as they move forward I doubt if they will continue to upgrade us with the new SSD cards for the dragon and beyond. We are already out dated RED ONE, SCARLET, EPIC because this new and never created before Dragon will demand all of the attention. We know this game so why not ask for a little something to keep up. If they should choose to do the SSD USB thing or something like that, I don't think it will be a problem at all or lower that fine 128 SSD card to 500-700 bucks man LOL

 

[Tony Harris]

If the RED Cameras were at the 12v max... a battery belt would have saved me mad dollars LOL

 

[Peter Majtan]

...my bottom line is can we use an external port to capture raw data from the camera like the ssd cards

OK ...Question when they said that we can record to an external device how is that possible? Using what port?

Red never said that you can record raw...

Your obvious confusion aside, this topic (allowing the use of 3rd party storage) has been discussed number of times.
RED is not a consumer camera. It never has been and never will be.
Designed for professionals - RED has the responsibility to guarantee the reliability of capture media. After all the exact same cameras are used on productions where average shooting day cost in excess of $100K USD (when you account for all the equipment, crew, cast, locations, sets, etc...).
The direct benefit to us shooting on much lower budgets with the same exact cameras is that we have a access to the same quality of imaging technology. This comes at a price such as the proprietary media. If you can not understand (or accept) this, then perhaps the RED ecosystem is not the best for you and you should consider the "consumer" cameras that allow you to record to your own USB drives, SSDs, or what ever else. No offense. And please do not mention SONY (Cinealta range) or ARRI (Alexa range). Neither is consumer, nor will they allow the use of any USB / SSD to capture their RAW data. The actual external recorders from 3rd parties used on these cameras to record their RAW streams are way more expensive and cumbersome when compared to REDMAGs...

:sifone: Peter

 

[Tony Harris]

Peter! Spare me man... you are way out in left field, you don't have to tell me about RED as long as we have been awaiting the digital world to take over. If RED was another cheap ass consumer camera maker I wouldn't be on board. So you don't have to keep drilling me like you work for them or feel that you have to defend the company like I am talking down about them. cool Maybe you don't have a valid answer or maybe you didn't think of it first never the less when I get home I will be opening a box that contains my new EPIC. Dream completed! What other company can do this??? and I have the hat to match.

 

[Tony Harris]

Oh yeah peter someone ask the question when did RED say that we could record RAW files to an external device and my reply was ...Red never said that ..please read all before the attack thanks.

 

[Tony Harris]

Can I connect a 1/3" bayonet lens to an epic?

 

[Matt Ryan]

Isn't this thread about Dragon?

Not to be rude but ask all non thread related questions elsewhere. This is not an external recorder, lens mount thread...

 

[Dmitry Burenok]

I suspect Dragon to be on it's final mile to us but it is not what is really exciting, it is product which is already being made. I think that DRAGON is just an early bird shortcut to 8K RED's ( heard some "unconfirmed noise" about it But definitely everything has to be made from scratch for 8K - I'm not sure it is possible to create ASIC which will fit into existing DSMC body. And lot's of power and heat... Newly developed graphene based nanonelectronics might be possible lead to it, but it is just an R&D for now sure it takes 4-5 years to get to the market.

 

[Justin Quinn]

Hey Justin, Sorry, but you are wrong.. Current Thunderbolt is only capable of 4X speeds , even if you ignore the overhead. Doesn't matter if the chassis puts the card in a 8x slot.. its still running at 4X. The current rocket is not going to run at full speed in a TB1 external chassis Sorry.

But your punch line is kinda correct... if you stated the exact opposite of what you said. Everything except transcoding you might not see a big difference ( i.e. using the Rocket in an enclosure for real time playback on a 24fps timeline ) .. and TB2 will likely allow that same realtime playback in 5K. Transcoding speed however is much different story.

Whatever the case may be.. TB2 is definitely better than TB1

Jarred, with all due respect, I believe you are mistaken. Please, hear me out...

TB 1.0 is not the bottleneck, the current Red Rocket is the bottleneck. There is no possible way the current Red Rocket can process (transcode) 1.25GBs (10Gbs)... no way, not even close. However, TB 1.0 has enough throughput to come close to 1.25GBs (though real world speeds are around 900MBs).

Even a x4 lane PCIe V2 can handle 2GBs, or double that of TB 1.0... so that has nothing to do with it either...

Like so many other DITs, I originally had my Red Rocket in my x16 (PCI V2) slot Mac Pro and I achieved real time transcodes (24fps). Then I put the exact same Red Rocket in my Sonnet (which is a x4 PCI V2) via TB 1.0 and I get the exact same transcode speeds of 24fps. Now I don't have to bring my gigantic tower with me on set anymore... in fact, I don't really know many DITs that do that anymore...

This is easily verified by several other Reduser posters such as Jeff Kilgore, Tom Wong, Nick Shaw, Eric Santiago, Neil W. Smith, Sergio Perez, etc.... The same thing goes for playback... I get realtime playback whether my Red Rocket is in my tower or Sonnet... it's really amazing what TB can do!

So if you are experiencing some sort of lag, I'd check your system setup because you should DEFINITELY be getting the exact same transcoding and playback speeds whether your Red Rocket is in an Internal PCIe slot or External Expansion Chassis connected via TB 1.0. If not, there is some sort of hardware/software issue bottlenecking your system.

In such situations, the usual bottleneck is the HDD storage, not the TB 1.0.


You can read about everyone's finding in the thread posted below...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?81695-Magma-ExpressBox-3T&highlight=sonnet

Thanks for hearing me out.


jq

 

[Justin Quinn]

Sergio, wouldn't you like 5x realtime?
With TB2 we probably are stuck with 2x realtime on the RR-X.
It's not bad of course but it's not its full potential...and if you have tons of footage and/or a 3D production on hand...

Actually, we're probably get 4x realtime...

If TB 2.0 turns out to be a full 2.5 GBs (20Gbs) then we should be more than golden. However, in reality, we'll probably see TB 2.0 peak at about 1.75GBs throughput.

If the new RRX is 5x faster than the current version, then I'm not sure TB 2.0 will even bottleneck it in any meaningful/noticeable way at all...

Of course, benchmark tests will show us the exact differences. But most any of us end users will be hard pressed to tell the difference between 4x or 5x transcode speed...