Dragon Update + A.D.D.

[Matt Ryan]

My personal opinion is to open up the Dragon M sales to the general public already. Up-graders should not complain because they are getting an upgrade for peanuts as opposed to buying a completely new camera. Why should everyone else wait until all of those low cost upgrades are performed before they can purchase a new camera? There are a lot of people who want to buy a Dragon but don't see it currently possible when having to cough up an extra $20k for a Carbon. So my opinion is start the Dragon M sales so we get a wider ownership and more people adopt the Dragon sooner. They shouldn't have to wait until the upgrades are complete. That only gives exclusivity to the up-graders and takes away from the larger industry that is out there. Those lucky enough to be able to upgrade are getting an incredible deal. The idea to give up-graders the option to pay more for a trade in is a good trade off, but it's also time to open up new Dragon orders to the general public.

 

[Grant H]

My personal opinion is to open up the Dragon M sales to the general public already. Up-graders should not complain because they are getting an upgrade for peanuts as opposed to buying a completely new camera. Why should everyone else wait until all of those low cost upgrades are performed before they can purchase a new camera? There are a lot of people who want to buy a Dragon but don't see it currently possible when having to cough up an extra $20k for a Carbon. So my opinion is start the Dragon M sales so we get a wider ownership and more people adopt the Dragon sooner. They shouldn't have to wait until the upgrades are complete. That only gives exclusivity to the up-graders and takes away from the larger industry that is out there. Those lucky enough to be able to upgrade are getting an incredible deal. The idea to give up-graders the option to pay more for a trade in is a good trade off, but it's also time to open up new Dragon orders to the general public.

We're one of the people cash in hand hoping for the RED Team to adopt that opinion!

 

[Brent Carter]

You can already order EPIC-M non-carbon bodies. It is just a matter of us notifying all the early adoptor/EPIC-M customers who ordered in that priority period of NAB last year. As you can imagine, that was a lot of takers. Once that group is all blasted, EPIC-M DRAGON new orders can start shipping (along with standard EPIC-X upgrade orders).

 

[Michael Lindsay]

I have no problem with RED selling dragons anytime they can... My mild frustration is the upgrade process seems to be going very slowly.

Perhaps part of the problem is this thread

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?97899-WHO-TOOK-DRAGON-UPGRADE

Because according to this thread very very few cameras are upgraded (which I am sure is untrue)...

I was a early adopter, red enthusiast and also Epic M buyer and with a time stamp of 8th April 11.21 i really expected to have at least one dragon by now... If I thought this was in doubt I would have sold one of my EPIC Ms and grabbed a CF dragon in last year.

Perhaps Red could give feedback as they did in the Red ones days? The number of blasts going out type of thing!?

Thank you and still excited...!

 

[Detlev Eller]

The Zen of Dragon ....

 

[Grant H]

As mythical and elusive as one, anyway!

 

[Brent Carter]

I have no problem with RED selling dragons anytime they can... My mild frustration is the upgrade process seems to be going very slowly.

Perhaps part of the problem is this thread

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?97899-WHO-TOOK-DRAGON-UPGRADE

Because according to this thread very very few cameras are upgraded (which I am sure is untrue)...

I was a early adopter, red enthusiast and also Epic M buyer and with a time stamp of 8th April 11.21 i really expected to have at least one dragon by now... If I thought this was in doubt I would have sold one of my EPIC Ms and grabbed a CF dragon in last year.

Perhaps Red could give feedback as they did in the Red ones days? The number of blasts going out type of thing!?

Thank you and still excited...!

Correct, that thread is a very, very small sampling. You are assuming that every person getting DRAGON found that thread and posted, which we all know is not going to happen - esp some of the really big productions and rental houses.

 

[Phil Holland]

I know for a fact there's 7 Carbon Dragons here in South Korea. We're using a couple of them and mine today.

 

[Scott Crawley]

You can already order EPIC-M non-carbon bodies. It is just a matter of us notifying all the early adoptor/EPIC-M customers who ordered in that priority period of NAB last year. As you can imagine, that was a lot of takers. Once that group is all blasted, EPIC-M DRAGON new orders can start shipping (along with standard EPIC-X upgrade orders).

Timing is everything, and those who have the new sensors early have a unique opportunity to cash in. I understand and appreciate Red's loyalty to their earliest supporters, but this is the third product release cycle now that is almost completely jammed up waiting for all of these upgrades to get done. If Red is ever going to shed the old title of "Late" they will need to either streamline or eliminate this practice. Otherwise when competing camera manufacturers catch up Red may run the risk of being too late... in other words, late to the market.

 

[Matt Ryan]

Timing is everything, and those who have the new sensors early have a unique opportunity to cash in. I understand and appreciate Red's loyalty to their earliest supporters, but this is the third product release cycle now that is almost completely jammed up waiting for all of these upgrades to get done. If Red is ever going to shed the old title of "Late" they will need to either streamline or eliminate this practice. Otherwise when competing camera manufacturers catch up Red may run the risk of being too late... in other words, late to the market.

I agree. This is why RED needs to have Dragon M's available to order for immediate delivery in the month of April and then release the Dragon-x in 2-3 months from the start of Epic-M's. With NAB also coming up an eminent announcement from Canon, Sony, and Arri on the future models to come. If they beat Dragon to mass market that will be a huge hit. RED announced Dragon upgrades last year and unless you purchase a Carbon it isn't available a year later. The general public needs to be able to order and receive a Dragon immediately, not wait until the upgrades are complete. This is great for existing customers but what about everyone else who wants to migrate to RED? I know several who want to buy but in no way can justify paying $20k more for one pound less of weight. If this can be accomplished without slowing down upgrades then I do not see an issue...

 

[Grant H]

I agree. This is why RED needs to have Dragon M's available to order for immediate delivery in the month of April and then release the Dragon-x in 2-3 months from the start of Epic-M's. With NAB also coming up an eminent announcement from Canon, Sony, and Arri on the future models to come. If they beat Dragon to mass market that will be a huge hit. RED announced Dragon upgrades last year and unless you purchase a Carbon it isn't available a year later. The general public needs to be able to order and receive a Dragon immediately, not wait until the upgrades are complete. This is great for existing customers but what about everyone else who wants to migrate to RED? I know several who want to buy but in no way can justify paying $20k more for one pound less of weight. If this can be accomplished without slowing down upgrades then I do not see an issue...

Excuse my ignorance but is there a difference between Dragon-M and Dragon-X? Or are you just speculating? I'm still not fully aware of the way RED names their products other than One/Scarlet/Epic/Dragon.

 

[Matt Ryan]

Excuse my ignorance but is there a difference between Dragon-M and Dragon-X? Or are you just speculating? I'm still not fully aware of the way RED names their products other than One/Scarlet/Epic/Dragon.

Epic M is machined (hand assembled), Epic X is cast aluminum. Epic X is the cheaper of the two options and originally the M series was similar to the Carbon in it's early/exclusive release prior to the standard mass produced X version. The parts inside and everything else is the same. The difference is in the hand build and body processes.

 

[Grant H]

Epic M is machined, Epic X is cast aluminum. Epic X is the cheaper of the two options and originally the M series was similar to the Carbon in it's early/exclusive release prior to the standard mass produced X version.

Perfect, thank you!

 

[Les Hillis]

PS.

Would like to nominate Tom Greenberg for play of the year so far. Well done son, in there and scoring before anyone else even knew what was happening. :smiley:

Would also like to give a special commendation to Detlev for somehow managing to use the words 'panties' and 'scent' in the same sentence, without actually referring to the scent of panties.

Now that's Zen.

 

[Medavoym]

Early adopters are very meaningful to RED (as RED is to them).

The vast majority - in addition to believing in RED from the get go by putting money down - are also hardcore fans. They were the ones who pushed the brand in the beginning. And - 99% of them are very grateful and patient - willing to wait for the upgrades as long as it takes RED to churn through the process.

Sorry, but a couple of unhappy customers doesn't mean anything. The backbone of RED are the other 99.99% faithful early adopters.

I, for one, even though I am not an early adopter (unfortunately!) I fully agree with rewarding their loyalty and initial trust. Let's face it guys - without them, RED would NOT be where it is today. My humble 2 cents.

The solution is not to stop the upgrades or to suddenly get rid of all the rules. The solution is to find ways to get through the process faster.
RED knows best how to do that.

 

[scott devitte]

Yes indeed. I have been wanting to buy a Dragon for over a year. I got taken to task on this forum because I expressed my frustration and disappointment and bought into another ecosystem.

The thread that I started stating my position ( admittedly a bit enthusiastic) was then shut down after people got to criticize and ridicule me, but before I could answer.

I just let it slide but was amazed that some people on this forum took offense to somebody wanting a camera that they could work with now. Not sometime in the future.

As I see from your post (referring to Matt Ryan above) I am not the only frustrated person, So I am using this opportunity to state my position more clearly-

I am a working pro, I travel a lot, to places where you can't rent . It is important to own my own equipment and I couldn't wait forever. I was not willing to pay 20k to get a cut in line.

Now that I have a working system (which I have designed to eventually accommodate a Dragon), I am back in line waiting on a Dragon, but who knows when? I really want that sensor, but I need to shoot now. And, as you have stated, maybe there is something else better that is going to creep up on them if they don't get the cameras into the field.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Upgrade Paths.

Upgrade Paths.

I've got to point out a couple of business issues people aren't thinking of. If they hire more people to get the upgrades done more quickly they have to spend training them up then have to figure out what to do with them afterwards or fire them. Businesses depend on fairly regular income to keep in business, and work to keep their employees employed. If they manufacture every thing at once they have debt on the products they have in stock waiting for sales, no movability in case something goes wrong or a new rival threat demands changes, and nothing for the production line employees to do. I've considered doing this in the past for a $6000 digital cinema camera through Asian contract manufacturing and just operating a sales and service office while designing the next model in a few years time (a particularly good camera that can last 3 years) but Red owns its own production lines. These sort of technical jobs are a lot harder to find and require a lot more training than in cinema.

The reality is that it will just take a long time to get it all finished smoothly without mucking up the business or being unfair to employees.


Solutions we have discussed and others:

Buy a new dragon, sell your old camera to get it quickly. Allow the new owner to get the old owners position in the upgrade cue.

Bring forward new cheaper dragon production and give people in the upgrade path first option to buy instead of upgrading.

Trade in on a new dragon. Sell the trade-ins, possibly with upgrade.

The problem for people with multiple camera setup. is they might want upgrades of all cameras at once so the picture is the same.

 

[D Anderson]

Solutions we have discussed and others:

Buy a new dragon, sell your old camera to get it quickly. Allow the new owner to get the old owners position in the upgrade cue.

This is risky. You have to leave the camera in the original owners name - then after loads of time passes send your camera in under the old owners name - pay for the upgrade - then contact the old owner to get red to transfer ownership.

What happens if you cant make contact with the old owner? you are screwed!



This has got disaster written all over it and theres more reasons than the above trusting a seller in this way could prove disastrous.

 

[Brent Carter]

The solution is not to stop the upgrades or to suddenly get rid of all the rules. The solution is to find ways to get through the process faster.
RED knows best how to do that.

Trust me, we are doing everything we can to go as quickly as possible. RED has nothing to gain by stretching things out, trust me!

 

[Wayne Morellini]

This is risky. You have to leave the camera in the original owners name - then after loads of time passes send your camera in under the old owners name - pay for the upgrade - then contact the old owner to get red to transfer ownership.

What happens if you cant make contact with the old owner? you are screwed!



This has got disaster written all over it and theres more reasons than the above trusting a seller in this way could prove disastrous.

D, I am meaning Red themselves specially sets up a process that allows it to be re-registered at sale.