Dragon Update + A.D.D.

[John Marchant]

Opening a new line alongside the upgrades for fresh purchases seems reasonable to me.

Clearly I've had my share of special friendly treatment, but that didn't stop me selling up a bunch of perfectly good shootable gear to pay for a Carbon as soon as I could make it work.

If its business critical its been possible for a while now to do something proactive as a customer, and this just expands the concept.

its just my opinion, maybe influenced by having previously had a camera that was a long way down the MX queue, but the opportunity to upgrade at a friendly price was reward enough- getting to stand ahead of all new customers too seemed like a double whammy.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Gavin, you gotta help me out here man. I am trying to offer a solution to help you guys.. If everyone is fine with just waiting... then we don't need to change anything. The barrage of new and old customers yelling at us every day to hurry up seemed like a problem that needed to be fixed. Your post insinuates that we are trying to screw you somehow.

I sympathize, I really do and you're right there is no win here for anybody. :| But I do ask that you sympathize with it from our perspective too. When we see you offering brand new cameras, that wrongly or not implies that there manpower and resources at RED that could be doing other things (specifically upgrading our cameras). I know your intentions aren't to try and screw us, but we can all agree that Dragon is way, way, way behind schedule--nobody benefits from this, RED suffering probably most of all in all honesty, but the fact is that it's well behind expectations ("Dragon Starts Now" at NAB 2013) and the solution being proposed to fix your delays is to give you extra money. It's rationally a perfectly sensible solution. It's emotionally a tough pill to swallow. Your customers obviously aren't responsible for it being behind schedule, but now they're the ones who have to pay extra to speed things up. The devil as always will be in the details "How Much". You at least from me have the benefit of the doubt, but sell us on it.

I apologize for the pothole analogy you're right that was being a bit to harsh. The best analogy is that it is very close to the TSA. I paid $100 in order to get a card to mostly skip security. It's been worth every penny. I completely understand that it costs probably more than $100 to do the background checks and print the card etc. But even though I know it's perfectly on the up and up I can't help but be resentful to have the TSA be both the problem and the solution. I guess what I'm saying is be gentle and sensitive--you're fighting an uphill battle of perception. It's not insurmountable but surely you can acknowledge it's not difficult to be misinterpreted.

 

[Daniel P Rudin]

Well, what i dont get..

i for myself jumped the boat early buying a scarlet because of the footage i've seen from the red one and getting offered a future upgrade path.. never second guessed a single time after i received my Scarlet after a long wait..

I used the upgrade path to upgrade to Epic AFTER i had the funds and have my camera ready to send in.. again.. perfectly happy and shooting around with my Epic..

now.. i want to again follow the upgrade path, that in the first decision was a huge part to put all my trust into RED (and i still do). But i am still WAITING to order my upgrade to dragon because i dont have the funds yet
and dont have my camera ready to go out because of projects happening right now.. So, am i stupid to wait??

Why are other people that do not have the funds or can not send their cameras already have ordered the upgrade and slow down the whole process?? i'm i just too stupid waiting for my side to be ready??

Just to keep your place in the queue and slow all other people
and RED down in the process.. for me this seems just like plain wrong..

but that may be just me..
still patiently waiting for the moment i'm ready to pull the trigger..

 

[Jarred Land]

I sympathize, I really do and you're right there is no win here for anybody. :| But I do ask that you sympathize with it from our perspective too. When we see you offering brand new cameras

You have us on the delays... Which is why I am here trying to offer a solution. You are hung up on the shipping new camera orders bit. We are going to get to the point of shipping new Dragon Epic-M orders pretty soon regardless of anything we settle on here according to the old plan, so that point is a bit moot.

 

[Stephen Franchek]

I'm getting a 12 core w/ D700s tomorrow. Does anyone have experience with this Mac configuration on the insanity that is A.D.D.?

 

[Michael Tiemann]

I'm getting a 12 core w/ D700s tomorrow. Does anyone have experience with this Mac configuration on the insanity that is A.D.D.?

Grabbing a single frame takes only seconds...and only a few more seconds on a fully-configured iMac. ADD is really great, but it breaks the concept of real-time rendering. Conversely, Davinci Resolve's temporal noise reduction (which is the next best thing to ADD) can run in real-time, but it breaks the concept of 4K (let alone 6K) imaging: the D700s simply don't have nearly enough memory to really do the job. It will be interesting to see whether RR-X makes progress faster than the GPU cards offered for the nMP on this and similar problems.

All in all the nMP is a nice machine, but it is no monster in the world of 4K+ video. As far as I have been able to tell, it can show a pretty picture, but it struggles in any real 4K pipeline.

 

[Tony Lorentzen]

You have us on the delays... Which is why I am here trying to offer a solution. You are hung up on the shipping new camera orders bit. We are going to get to the point of shipping new Dragon Epic-M orders pretty soon regardless of anything we settle on here according to the old plan, so that point is a bit moot.

I want a Dragon-upgraded camera as much as anyone here, but as I understand it you guys have totally different production lines for building new camera as well as upgrading cameras, right? If that's the case then I don't see how one line can affect the other unless there's a sensor/parts shortage and building new cameras are being prioritised over upgrading (which would be totally understandable from a business perspective). We all just have to be patient, although that can be hard sometimes when you see others running around shooting great stuff with their cameras

If being a RED customer has taught me anything, it's having to be patient. Things take time and rushing it (or pissing off Jarred) doesn't help anyone ;-)

 

[Antony Newman]

In my view a trade-in represents the business group who wish their camera being out of action for the minimum time, and/or the amazing option of getting something spanking new and all the great things associated with 'being in warranty'.


For each camera sent in, Red would still need to perform technical health checks and possibly even fix each camera before accepting them. With finite engineering resource, would still require cameras to be sent in piecemeal - or necessitate Red from holding a larger deposit until the returned camera was proven to be functional.


Each camera would then need cleaning up, stored, rewarrantied and then entered into a new 'battle tested' sales portal.


With this in mind, I feel Red have every right to charge more for this service, if indeed they gracefully decide to offer it.


AJ

 

[Patrick Grossien]

The upgrade process is one of the big things that made me a supporter for RED - along with the superbe cameras of course!

I understand the upgrade process as "Get camera X now. Shoot with it and get the new version of camera X for less money than buying a brand new one" and not "Have the new camera X sooner than others". If I would have to suggest to anybody else how to get an early dragon (not being part of the early adopters group) I would advise them to buy the "M" version (or maybe in this case the CARBON) when it is available, as that would be the earliest you could get it, just like it was with the EPIC-M/X. Jarred announced that stage, too.

I have to say that, although we all feel so familiar with the upgrade process already, this is only the second time this is being done. So that the whole process doesn't work out "as advertised" or changes along the way is still somewhat forgivable to me personally. So to me that means, that only things can be improved in the future, and I'm sure they will. Of course that doesn't help those who made a business decision in buying an EPIC-X now to get to Dragon faster. But to me that is already making a decision on a vague timeframe.

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

All I can say in this is I'm both an early adopter and and Epic-M owner of two cameras. I got in place last NAB very early -as per Harcharan's unofficial time stamp list- for both and I haven't received any notice in spite of pestering my Bomb Squad rep on a bi-monthly basis. I've been almost begging to see when and where I could send in my M's.

It appears there are several dozen -if not a couple hundred- Dragons out there. I would love to have my order(s) called, but that message has not been sent.

Here's hoping this will happen soon.

 

[Vladimir Eugene]

RED, is extremely generous. I forecasted, that they would sell new Dragons first, then the upgrades. You already have a too good to pass up upgrade client base, get new clients first, then at a slower pace deliver on the too good to pass up upgrade offer. That made the most business sense in my mind.

To my delight, RED upgraded first based on time stamp and early adaptor- sure, I could have expected this based on how good they have treated us in the past. The exception being Carbon Fiber- which I think most understand.

I believe a lot of the disappointment comes from the extremely generous past we've come accustomed to. No one should be surprised from DELAYS- that has been around since the beginning

My hope is that the Carbon Fiber Dragons continue to be the flagships. That the carbon fiber mini side SSD modules ships before new, ( not upgraded, or trade-in) EPIC Dragons ships.

My second wish would be all upgrades first... But, I think I'm just being greedy here

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Maybe as I said elsewhere about releases, Red could simply say that it is unlikely to be before a certain date, then people can relax and forget it for a while. You basically give no date, but let them know when it is not likely too come.

 

[ivan friedman]

Another option... a trade-in option for new cameras instead of an upgrade. Will cost a bit more, but elevates alot of the bottleneck.

I was actually wondering about this. interesting option...

 

[Chad Lancaster]

Patiently waiting for my epic-m to be called in.

Shooting in some slot canyons at the end of April for my film, were the dynamic range is huge. Hoping I'll have my dragon in time.

Either way, patiently waiting and my mx epic is still kicking ass all around.

 

[Joe Taylor]

Hi Jarred, I'm pretty sure I'm reading this wrong but to clarify - are you saying that after the "current" upgrades running into fall, RED will no longer be offering Dragon uprgrades?

Hear, Hear! My heart skipped a beat when I read this. If this is the case my Epic will in effect be rendered obsolete.

 

[orlando schirch]

I have been a long time passive reader on the forum and have learned a bunch from fellow users during those years. Just recently aquired my first Epic -M already thinking of a future upgrade. I run a company here in Brazil and now that as much as I really love what I do...atthe end of the day...business is business and we all have bills to pay. I cannot conceive the idea of one even thinking that RED should not sell new Dragon cameras to new buyers that are willing to pay a premium before everyone else Upgrades....that makes no scence ( emotions aside) from a professional business perspective. If you NEED red Dragon now...Pay a premium and get it NOW.....I am really happy that I can get to upgrade my camera in the future for about 9500k .... and I thing we are all really spoiled to have Jarred himself participating in this and putting his personal effort to make arrangements, listen to new ideas and suggestions from redusers and show us all his love for the brand and most importantly ..... having all of us fell close to the brand we love .... like we are part of the RED family/ business!! Thank you for this Great experience Jarred!! Will happily wait on my turn, no matter how long it takes! in the meanwhile will be shooting the second best sensor in the world!

 

[Jarred Land]

Hear, Hear! My heart skipped a beat when I read this. If this is the case my Epic will in effect be rendered obsolete.

No dont worry.. Dragon upgrades wont end once we are done upgrading. The price may change and the wait time obviously will changed but we will still offer upgrades as long as we have the parts and as long as there are people out there that want upgrading.

 

[Sean Cruser]

As someone whose been anxiously awaiting to join the RED family with a new Epic M Dragon and a few potentially career-changing shoots in the next few weeks... I couldn't be more excited by all this chatter.

 

[Jan Reiff]

I was actually wondering about this. interesting option...

what means "a bit more" ? ;-)

 

[Les Hillis]

Not trying to fan the flames now that everything's cool again, but the problem I'm seeing here seems to be with people wanting to be part of the upgrade process that's cheaper than buying a new camera, while also wanting to get their camera's upgraded before the standard non-carbon Dragon camera's become available for anyone to purchase. So, they want the discount and the early access.

So the solution suggested (and already maligned) is to offer people on the upgrade list the opportunity to trade in their camera's for new Dragon camera's instead of upgrading their current camera's. Which means RED now have to set a trade-in price on the current Epic's and a sale price for the new Dragon's, open up a new line to process the trade-in camera's, let people know about the new option, and hope enough people take the trade-in offer to make a noticeable difference to the current rate of upgrades being undertaken...

I'm not sure how that would be easier than just adding more people to the upgrade process line and calling in more camera's for upgrades, even if it means some people might be without their camera's for a little bit longer after sending them in.

Either way, the only way for RED to speed up the upgrade process is to spend more human resources on it by adding to their management and assembly-line workload. Which would cost them more in terms of money and workload pressures, for no real benefit other than getting the upgrades done a bit sooner and getting to sell brand new camera's a bit sooner than they were going to anyway.

Just because people are impatient?

As I see it, RED already have a working plan in place and upgrades have been rolling out as quickly as they can, but some people haven't been happy enough with that because it doesn't fit in with their own personal wants/needs.

People are saying they need the camera for this or that reason, but there's always going to be someone somewhere whose schedule or budget or business plan just doesn't end up fitting in with RED's own. Seems to me RED have got their job to do, and beyond that they're not really obligated to help others do theirs. There are lots of examples of them actually going the extra mile to help people out, but they're under no obligation to.

Same with the upgrade thing in general. RED did sell Epic's and Scarlet's with upgradeability to Dragon sensors as part of their marketing, and they have been and are and will be making good on that 'promise'. There have been unavoidable set backs and delays, but RED have been meeting their obligations and fulfilling upgrade orders.

On the other hand, to misrepresent the upgrade OPTION people have been given as being a marketing ploy, motivated by the desire to stay in business, and to suggest RED's business wouldn't be viable or anywhere near as successful as it's been if they hadn't done that, is just wrong in my opinion. Especially when Jim and Jarred have stated their reasoning behind the upgrade program is mainly to avoid the overcharging of customers, wastefulness of resources and slowing down of feature advancements that goes with having to replace entire camera's whenever new improvements are introduced to the line. I think if they wanted to, RED could still maintain their place in the market even without the upgrade process, by continuing to make reasonably priced camera's with superior features than what their their competition are making and charging for. But they'd rather offer their customers the upgrade OPTION instead, largely because it's just the right thing to do.

Sorry for the long post. Yes it sucks having to wait. No we're not there yet. People have made constructive suggestions as to how to possibly speed up the process and RED are looking into it. The upgrade process is on-going in any case.