Dragon Update + A.D.D.

[Jarred Land]

Hi Jarred,

Would it be possible just to let us know how many of us have taken the upgrade and how many have been upgraded, just so we can just get a sense of the numbers we are looking at.

When I ordered my upgrade, I miss understood the rules, and I paid the full amount on the same day I ordered the update.
In the mean time my Bomb Squad Rep explained to me the rules, but my money had already been wired. Having paid in full, so long ago, has been a bit difficult, because in the country I live in, Mozambique, I am required by law to justify the transfer of hard currency (US Dollars) out of the country, and until the Epic arrives, I have to keep on writing a letter to the Bank explaining why my item still has not arrived. They keep on asking me the same question "When" and I my answer is that my item is still not ready, and they are starting to doubt me. I don't want the money back, as that will end up costing me more in bank fees.

Any way, I will keep on writing letters to them until they put me up against the wall, then I don't know what I will do. When that time comes, I just hope I will not goto jail....

Just hope the upgrades go as fast as possible and we all get our Dragons, but in the mean time, the EPIC is already such a great camera, I can't complain, I love shooting with it.

All the best

Antonio

Hey Antonio, we don't take money for anything until the product is ready to ship. It sounds like you wired money without us requesting it, which is a tough position to be in. Ill check on monday where you are in line and see if we can't help you along.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Now for something new.... A.D.D.


Graeme and Rob have been busy working on something special... and we will be releasing a beta build of RCX with A.D.D. ( Advanced Dragon Debayer ) at the end of next week.


A.D.D. is a new hyper-debayer algorithm for Dragon that spends a ton of time analyzing every single pixel and creating the best frame possible. It doesn't pull any punches, it processes everything at the highest degree possible and squeezes out every last ounce buried deep inside Dragon R3Ds.

It is incredibly expensive computationally... each frame will take seconds to process. The results are absolutely phenomenal.

For all you guys using the Dragon to pull stills from motion, it truly can't be beat.

Absolutely cool Jarred, at last. Thanks.

At least A.D.D, doesn't mean Attention Deficit Disorder.

Now, when can we find out about low end Dragon models, Jarred?

 

[Jarred Land]

If RED has thousands of dragon sensors ready to go, and the volume of upgrades being done, differs vastly week to week,
because people are not sending in their cameras, and thereby stalling the upgrade-line.... that is
not good for anybody...

a standby option or being able to choose a pre-planned upgrade slot at a certain date, would make a lot of sense, for all parties.

It doesn't matter... a standby or pre-planned slot still is going to be unpredictable. We arn't looking for more ways to make things complicated or come up with creative ways that really just mean a different way of standing in line.... the punch line remains the same.

We have the parts, we can only physically do so many cameras in a week and we can only contact enough people that we think we can get to in that period of time. If they miss a day or two of sending their camera in for whatever reason, or if the camera comes in for upgrade in some sort of disrepair that needs a little extra attention, we aren't going to throw them to the back of the line.

We want to avoid over blasting people and getting too many cameras in and having people waiting longer than they need to.

The whole process just takes time. more than we wish, more than you wish.

Just like it did last time.

 

[jacob.schwarz]

Jarred thanks for the update. The wait has been long but it will be worth it. While I wish I could get my upgrade sooner then later I'm not opposed to you opening up a line to make the new camera for new customers, I might just grab a new dragon myself. Upgrading is a great privilege, new customers shouldn't think its a privilege to benefit from what you guys have to offer.

Jake

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Please understand we are a business as well. We need to sell product to continue to do everything we do. I know waiting is hard.. but you need to remember that being able to upgrade your cameras is not a right but a privilege. We love all our customers and our supports that have been with us.. thats why we give you guys the option... at a price point that is more of a thank you rather than a business model. If you are suggesting we need to stop all business and wait for everyone to get their upgrades done I will tell you right now that isn't going to happen and I am surprised that you would suggest as such. If you think its fair for us not to allow new customers to RED have any option to be in the family than you are missing the point of why we started this company.

We are really doing something special here with this whole thank you upgrade program, but it looks like you guys are looking at it like it is an obligation.

But thank you, you helped me make up my mind.

We will be opening up new camera orders to new customers ahead of the upgrade line. If our existing customers have lost appreciation for this whole program , then why wouldn't we.

Jarred I take a lot of flack often for recommending RED. (Haha, and for criticizing RED here... I guess I can't win. :smile I push the camera on productions where the entire crew hates RED and I patiently explain why Epic is the right camera for the job even though the SDI port might be a little out of the way or an occasional reboot slows us down by a minute. But I have to take huge exception to your attitude in this post. When I purchased a Scarlet in 2011 I did so because Jim made a promise he said "Upgradeable to Dragon". That's not a privilege. That's a right. You promised me an upgrade, you didn't do me a favor, I bought a $10,000 and then $20,000 camera because of a promise. To flippantly refer to that promise as a "privilege not a right" is to toss aside the good faith and promise of your company as simply something you may or may not be obligated to fulfill. Nobody forced RED to promise an upgrade that was part of your marketing. Don't think that RED's business hasn't benefited from offering upgrades. You have more than $20k from me based on your upgrade policy. That wasn't some nice little side-benefit that earned RED my business, it was a prime consideration.

As to letting "new family members in". There have been new family members joining. They've been told and promised by RED 'Just buy an Epic and you'll get a Dragon upgrade first'. All of those people joining the RED family and the Epic family over the last 12 months did so assuming that they would be first in line when Dragon was released. It's like offering a cruise to the Bahamas but saying "hey you can come on board and have drinks on deck while you wait for us to depart" and then a few hours later pulling up a second cruise and leaving with new passengers while they work on the engine of the first ship all night. It doesn't benefit RED for people like me to stop talking about RED because we're afraid we'll get further back in line "Hmmm, better not promote Dragon or else someone might just go buy one and then I'll be farther back in line." Let's be honest here RED taking care of its core customers is a mutually beneficial situation. RED relies on word of mouth marketing and has thrived because of its customers. The upgrade programs, the discounts etc--they've certainly paid themselves off many times over in good marketing. So it's not like RED is doing it entirely out of the kindness of your hearts. It's good business. You would have seen Epic-MX sales hurt over the last 12 months if you hadn't assured buyers of Epic-MX that they would be getting Dragon. This feels like a Having Your Cake and Eating it Too. You wanted all of those MX customers so that you didn't lose out on sales of people just waiting for Dragon. But now you are leaving them a bit high and dry. It makes me look like a bit of an asshole too when I keep telling people "Buy an Epic today! Don't wait for Dragon! It's better to get in line now and start shooting than to wait." I've been saying that all year to people. If anyone listened to me January or February... I feel like a total dick. Now they're at the back of the upgrade line instead of being where you promised, ahead of the new customers. They should have waited!

I joined the RED family as a customer not just a renter in 2011 because I expected to be a Dragon customer in 2012 (remember when 2012 was the projected release date). I joined the Epic family in 2013 because I expected Dragon in the summer of 2013 (remember when 2013 was the projected release date). As far as I'm concerned I joined the RED family *FOR DRAGON*, I only ever bought an MX camera (in 2011) as a placeholder for getting in line for Dragon. I've been directly or indirectly waiting in line since 2011. I felt like I bought a Dragon camera in 2011. I *AM* a new member of the RED Dragon family. I've just been waiting in line so long that I'm now part of the old guard. I understand and sympathize that you're behind schedule. But I feel like I'm getting thrown under the bus a bit for RED's missteps, not mine. If I was 2 years late in sending in my camera to get upgraded, then by all means bump me to the back of the line and take on new customers. But if you are having cash flow issues due to being 2 years behind schedule then forgive me for not being terribly sympathetic.

If people aren't sending in their cameras in a timely manner then that's kind of their problem. I get it would suck to miss out on a week. But I'm sure they would rather miss out on a couple days of rental or else get bumped back in line by a couple weeks than to wait months for their number to come up due to an inefficient process. Either that, or as you said, start a second line but start a line for people who are willing to be without their camera for extended periods of time. You could have the "Guaranteed delivery" line and a line that you *can* estimate since when your number comes up you get upgraded or you get skipped. I would be happy to get in such a line where it might take 2 weeks instead of 1 week but the line moves considerably faster.

To say that the problem is that people aren't sending in their cameras seems inconsiderate to people who have been waiting in line since there are plenty of people currently in line who would send in their camera today. Even if my camera was out on a rental and unavailable I would be perfectly understanding if someone else took my place. I would be far more understanding of someone taking my place than some new customer off the street just buying a camera.

Here is a proposed solution to your problem, because I don't like complaining, I like fixing:
Your number comes up you can either send it in immediately or you can opt for a delay. If you opt for a delay you go into the delay queue. Rinse and repeat giving delay queue people priority but just plowing on ahead with the main queue.

 

[Detlev Eller]

... i am shooting a friends dragon ... it is a privilege ... ;-)

i bet my panties that everyone shooting it, feels privileged ...
that is just the scent of the machine ...

 

[Jon MIchael Puntervold]

What is you point really? They say they do the upgrades as fast as they can, it might not be a privilege, but a right as you say, but they still do the upgrades as fast as they can, they claim, so what is your point? That they need to do it faster? You know, steady and safe is better than to mess up by doing things to fast... as we've seen in the past, not only at Red.

Then we have one option left... Do you want them to stop selling new cameras just to make you happy? I think all of us like Red to have a cash flow, so this is a really bad option if you are looking forward to new high quality cinema gear in the future.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

What is you point really? They say they do the upgrades as fast as they can, it might not be a privilege, but a right as you say, but they still do the upgrades as fast as they can, they claim, so what is your point? That they need to do it faster? Then we have one option left... Do you want them to stop selling new cameras just to make you happy?

Problem: The upgrade process is slow because people are unpredictable.

Solution 1) Sell new cameras to New Customers.
Solution 2) Speed up the slow process by following a less strict upgrade order that could result in cameras being unavailable.
Solution 3) Start another upgrade line instead of a new production line.

I'm advocating #2/#3. Like I said, I'm not trying to complain, I'm trying to solve the problem. Part of having a communication with your customers is that your customers sometimes disagree with your course of action. Even if I didn't have an alternative solution, it's still part of the conversation to advocate for our viewpoints. Part of compromise and communication is to request different proposals. If a client came to me and said "Sorry, we can't afford that" I should come back and say "Ok, well here is a proposal that maybe you can afford. It has less shoot days, less FX..." The client knows what they need--it's my job as a vendor to find a solution that makes them happy within the constraints that I as a vendor can easily balance. I don't expect necessarily my client to find a way to make their budget work. Similarly while "A second line just for more faster but longer upgrades" might not be a valid solution--but it's up to RED based on customer feedback to try and find a workable solution for their customers.

 

[Dr. Sassi]

...We have the parts, we can only physically do so many cameras in a week...

Thank you very much for the up-date. )

Sounds good and indicates that the "Sensor-Harvest" is much better than last year.

 

[D Anderson]

But I have to take huge exception to your attitude in this post. When I purchased a Scarlet in 2011 I did so because Jim made a promise he said "Upgradeable to Dragon". That's not a privilege. That's a right. You promised me an upgrade, you didn't do me a favor, I bought a $10,000 and then $20,000 camera because of a promise. To flippantly refer to that promise as a "privilege not a right" is to toss aside the good faith and promise of your company as simply something you may or may not be obligated to fulfill. Nobody forced RED to promise an upgrade that was part of your marketing. Don't think that RED's business hasn't benefited from offering upgrades. You have more than $20k from me based on your upgrade policy. That wasn't some nice little side-benefit that earned RED my business, it was a prime consideration.

Cant agree more.

In addition to debunking the "privilege" myth, I agree there MUST be a way to speed things up... But got to remember some people are openly voicing how they will simply buy a Dragon due to the delays. If I was RED I would find it mighty tempting not to speed up while slow upgrades are encouraging new sales. Not saying that's going on but clearly some people cant continue to wait and have funds. This is a positive side effect for RED with slow upgrades.

, it might not be a privilege, but a right as you say.

Exactly.

 

[Jarred Land]

Gavin, appreciate the feedback I value your opinion highly.

Privilege is a word I probably shouldn't of used since it has so many social emotions tied to it that it distorts the actual definition and I used it emotionally without explanation which made it even worse.

My bad.

The "privilege" at hand here is the order or stages we do the upgrades in and the privilege we give our early adopters of blocking everyone else out until they are done.. it gives an extra edge to our loyal customers to get their cameras first and get a jump on the market. That is the privilege. And that privilege and the delays associated completing it seems to be pissing everyone else off.

But lets not just pick on that process or our early adopters.. as I said even if that group didn't exist, we have thousands and thousands of upgrades to do and even if everyone sent in their camera tomorrow it still is going to take time to get through them all.. and people are going to be waiting no matter what we change or do.

Don't worry.. we are not going to stop upgrading cameras. We just re arrange the whole stage thing.. making exceptions at will.

And in terms of your #1,#2,#3 options... Thanks for the suggestions. I think #1 plus #3 might be an interesting way to go to make everyone happy.

 

[George A.]

Hi Jarred,

I'm very happy the tension diffused somewhat!

Hats off for staying calm and on top of things.

George

 

[Jarred Land]

Hi Jarred,

I'm very happy the tension diffused somewhat!

Hats off for staying calm and on top of things.

George

Heh heh.. I take this shit way too personally. I think I inherited that from Jim.

 

[Jon MIchael Puntervold]

I think I inherited that from Jim.

:emote_hippie:

 

[Marcos Montenegro]

I bought a Scarlet the night it became available Nov 2011. I had never used a RED before, but loved the movies that came out of the Red One, so I blindly jumped in. To get the nectar out of a R3D was a slightly steep curve for me, but I discovered REDUSER, and I thank you all for teaching and inspiring me.

I upgraded to an Epic-X last year, after extensive back and forth between the upgrade options available to Scarlet users, and realized I'd rather enjoy the benefits of an Epic-X while Dragon got sorted out. Best decision I ever made! I love shooting my Epic!

I signed up super late for the Dragon upgrade (Oct 15 2013), so I know I got a LONG wait, but in the meantime I'm thoroughly enjoying my RED ride with MX.

I decided to chime in because some here have to realize how spoiled we've become: What other company out there has their "Fire Chief" interacting with the users on a forum, or even allows for upgrades to happen in the first place?

The answer is no other company. Period. Yes, the upgrade wait is frustrating, especially when you have a business to run and budgets to adhere to. Yes, it shouldn't take a few business days to ship something if it says "in stock" at the RED store. Yes, from new product announcement to delivery takes way longer than it should, but they're just eager to share innovation with us and nobody wants the opposite.

Having said that, are they getting better? You bet. Are they human? You bet. RED is entering a phase of growing pains as they no longer are the few guys in a workshop as years before. I will be here and push RED to my customer so long as RED takes care of me and keeps innovating. I like that when they've made mistakes they're the first to own up to them.

We've already push Jim out to his self-exile to REDUSER. Nobody wants that to happen with Jarred, right?

 

[paul schefz]

sitting here scratching my head a little....i am really happy with my epic and am happy to wait my turn to upgrade....
but i don't really understand how the line works or how it ever worked and how it works now? the early adopter and epic M owners thing i understand but after that things are getting blurry and now there are 2 lines? and was that post (jarred's answer to tom? saying:give me your email, there are no more rules) serious?

i guess i don't really understand why this isn't handled like any other line: a number is automatically attached to a user and or serial number (according to the original "rules") and red goes down that list of numbers....every customer knows his/her number and there can even be a countdown online...if someone has to wait a couple of weeks (camera in use, rented,...) they don't lose their spot but simply get their turn when they are ready and in the meantime other get handled first....why would that not be possible?

i also don't see why red should not sell new dragons, of course that has priority....if you want need one NOW, you just have to pay for it NOW....simple as that....does not mean there can't be more transparency when it comes to the upgrade line.....

i would love to know that i am number 5965 and right now 1345 is served....that is information i can live with and make plans with....

 

[Tony Lorentzen]

Heh heh.. I take this shit way too personally. I think I inherited that from Jim.

There's a reason why he voted for you as president (or more) ;-)

Btw. - didn't order my upgrade until just recently. Not because I didn't believe the Dragon wouldn't be good, but simply because I didn't want to order until I knew I had the funds for it. Needless to say I'm still kicking myself on a regular basis for being so old-fashioned ;-)

 

[Brandon J.F.]

Heh heh.. I take this shit way too personally. I think I inherited that from Jim.

That's what happens when you really put your heart into something.

 

[D Fuller]

Heh heh.. I take this shit way too personally. I think I inherited that from Jim.

Of course you do. I take my business personally too. It matters to me. I live and breathe it. I take too much time away from my family for it. it's because you do too that we're all here. And it's why we get impatient with each other. If we didn't give a shit, we wouldn't say anything, we'd just wait for the next camera to come along.

I'm aching to get a Dragon because I'm working on a doc that will shoot in Haiti in May, and Dragon will make it better. I'm not going to make a dime on the film -- it's to raise money for a rural hospital. But I know it's going to present visual material that Dragon will make sing. So I'm and idiot. I'm anxious to spend $10K in preparation for a project that I won't make a dime on. But it's where my heart is. I want to make it beautiful.

I don't expect that I will have my camera upgraded by then. And you know, My MX Epic will work just fine. Really. But I'll know it could have been just a bit better shot on Dragon. So I get impatient. Sorry when that seeps in here. I'll try to keep it under wraps.

 

[Antony Newman]

If the current upgrade line is geared towards fast turn around from the moment they received the camera - maybe a 'Standby Queue' could be introduced where Very Slow turn around is expected.

When the main upgrade line finds itself with spare capacity :
+) The next Standby camera on the shelves is worked on.
+) The upgrade line would then be able to operate at maximum efficiency.
+) Owners with cameras waiting in the standby queue would have to accept their cameras are NOT in for a quick turn around (eg expect a month without your camera)
+) RED would control when Standbyers send in their cameras to guarantee they have more than they need to 'fill in the gaps'.

As I believe this strategy would shorten the overall Dragon upgrade cycle for RED, and free up their resources for other amazing projects - I would be happy to nominate myself as 'Standbyer'.
Maybe this strategy would depend on if there is a large group of people who would happily live without (one of) their cameras.

AJ