DRAGON - ITS THE REAL DEAL !!!!

[Martin Stevens]

Gentlemen.........this is supposed to be a thread about how the Dragon Sensor is the real deal....."DRAGON-ITS-THE-REAL-DEAL-!!!!"

So discussing the details about the Red MX sensor should most likely be best discussed in a different thread.

 

[Brett Harrison]

Scott, I'll try to give you my best explanation to what peeking is. Peeking at the centre of the hot spot will have 'bleeding', poor rolloff and some other ugly artifacts around it. The pictures above do have a white spot, but don't be fooled because is clean all way around the center and gradually fades away in what we call 'beautiful' rolloff, it's clean as a baby's bottom. No bleeding, no pink edges, artifacts, or whatever else happens when the sensor goes nuts.

that's peeking for me.

What you're talking about is sensor artifacts related to clip, which can be removed from the image in post or not. Sensors are inherently linear, any curved roll-off from a digital sensor is after-the-fact. IOW, if you took the filtration from the Alexa, and looked at a linear presentation of the image, you would see the same artifacts.

In other words, you can have Alexa-like effects with r3d with filtration and or post effects.

Regarding the segments of the images circled above: lack of detail in white (or highest value) either means that the sensor clipped OR that that part of the image lacked detail, like a blank page in bright sunlight for example: there would be no way of knowing from the graded image if the sensor had clipped or not. So in those example images you posted, we can't be certain if there's a massive white disk there, but if it's a light source then probability would dictate that it clipped.

Therefore what you're referring to when you say 'clipped' is actually the digital sensor 'artifact', which is something that's an option. And when you say that a certain camera isn't clipping, you're referring to an appealing roll-off to clip with the sensor artifacts removed.

This is all assuming that the light source exceeded the DR of the camera.

IOW, if you look at the sun on film you're looking at film clipping (unless you've got some baddass ND).

 

[David Battistella]

Gentlemen.........this is supposed to be a thread about how the Dragon Sensor is the real deal....."DRAGON-ITS-THE-REAL-DEAL-!!!!"

So discussing the details about the Red MX sensor should most likely be best discussed in a different thread.

You are right.

I will delete my posts and start a new thread....


David

 

[Scott Crawley]

Gentlemen.........this is supposed to be a thread about how the Dragon Sensor is the real deal....."DRAGON-ITS-THE-REAL-DEAL-!!!!"

So discussing the details about the Red MX sensor should most likely be best discussed in a different thread.

Trying to bring it back around. Help a brother to see how badass the DR and highlight roll off of Dragon are. ;-)

 

[Luis Otero]

Clipping is compressing, in a linear line, any information that is at or exceed the 1023. Using the "full range" scale the values are R=1023, G=1023, and B=1023. In that domain is where the "soft LUT" that has been mentioned here before, is set to White=960, so it will never clip by creating the soft roll-off. It is based on a logarithmic scale, and the "responsible" to see the top portion curve of "S curve" typical of the film, where white never clips but looks as a soft white-greyish as it approaches the top of the scale.


PS: I agree with opening other threat to discuss this topic, so this is my las posting here related to this subject.

 

[António Fagundes]

Gentlemen.........this is supposed to be a thread about how the Dragon Sensor is the real deal....."DRAGON-ITS-THE-REAL-DEAL-!!!!"

So discussing the details about the Red MX sensor should most likely be best discussed in a different thread.

Martin I think we are talking about Red's capture in general, because I saw the same artifacts on highlights in Mark's test as I see on the MX, so I think this discussion still stands.


As for peaking and highlights, I believe the difference is that both are pure white but when Red peaks it creates a harsh rolloff and some bleeding, where as a normal highlight will have none of those, its like as if you burnt the negative, its a hole, there's nothing there, hence the artifacts around the 'electronic' white of a clipped highlight (maybe Clipping is a better term than peaking...). If the highlight it's not clipped and is just pure white, then there's no 'hole' in that frame, and no bleeding or artifacts, it just reads as pure beautiful white (whatever value that is...), but Red let's the sensor go behind that point, leaving a permanent 'hole' in the frame.

And all I ask is for Red to be able to cancel the data reading before it clips! Its like shooting with no breaks on! You're going to crash and burn (literally). Pure white is all everyone ever needs, no one needs to go behind that point. Behind that point is a white electronic 'hole' full of artifacts!

And I saw a couple of these 'holes' in Mark's test of the Dragon...

Anyway, I'm exhausted... I think I will just have to live with the fact that if I want to shoot something with very harsh peaking bright light, I can't use Red, sadly. Red is the best for middle to soft light. So I guess I just have to wait until the Red team decides to kick the ball forward again!

Peace.

 

[Elsie N]

Here we go again Mr. Elsie!

Exactly what outrageus things did I say that hurt your feelings? How on earth did you expose me?? There's nothing to expose! Just my need to know the facts about the problem I see. And so far I haven't had any answers... It's annoying because I do need answers I want to shoot on Red no matter what kind of light I'll be using, that's all I'm asking.

I don't care if you love your camera, do it privately! I don't need your soft emotions here buddy, now could you once and for all leave the conversation and leave my ignorance fade away with some proper examples and explanations?

thank you

Here's your answer... if you don't want clipping, DON'T CLIP!

If you screw up and clip, take Mark Toia's advice or Björn's advice and just fix it... DON'T FIXATE ON IT!

(Apoligies if you are obsessive compulsive and can't help yourself)

 

[David Battistella]

I started this to move the discussion to its own thread....

I dont think it fair to mark to continue it here, as very few people are qualified to talk Dragon at this moment.

David

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?103961-EPIC-MX-Highlight-Rolloff-thread

 

[Martin Stevens]

Trying to bring it back around. Help a brother to see how badass the DR and highlight roll off of Dragon are. ;-)

Well, I believe that Mark's test imagery is just the tip of the iceberg, as in, soon the Dragon science will most likely be updated
and we will see what the Dragon is fully capable of.

You can not really properly judge the highlight clipping in Mark's test images because he never tells us how many
Foot Candles or Foot Lamberts etc. where there before him when he set his exposures.
Perhaps if he simple stopped down an extra stop or two this discussion would not be happening.

 

[Martin Stevens]

Martin I think we are talking about Red's capture in general, because I saw the same artifacts on highlights in Mark's test as I see on the MX, so I think this discussion still stands.


As for peaking and highlights, I believe the difference is that both are pure white but when Red peaks it creates a harsh rolloff and some bleeding, where as a normal highlight will have none of those, its like as if you burnt the negative, its a hole, there's nothing there, hence the artifacts around the 'electronic' white of a clipped highlight (maybe Clipping is a better term than peaking...). If the highlight it's not clipped and is just pure white, then there's no 'hole' in that frame, and no bleeding or artifacts, it just reads as pure beautiful white (whatever value that is...), but Red let's the sensor go behind that point, leaving a permanent 'hole' in the frame.

And all I ask is for Red to be able to cancel the data reading before it clips! Its like shooting with no breaks on! You're going to crash and burn (literally). Pure white is all everyone ever needs, no one needs to go behind that point. Behind that point is a white electronic 'hole' full of artifacts!

And I saw a couple of these 'holes' in Mark's test of the Dragon...

Anyway, I'm exhausted... I think I will just have to live with the fact that if I want to shoot something with very harsh peaking bright light, I can't use Red, sadly. Red is the best for middle to soft light. So I guess I just have to wait until the Red team decides to kick the ball forward again!

Peace.

Rest easily because it is easy with Red to simply expose so that your highlights are not clipped etc. and if they are you can
make them as soft as you want in post, or simple shoot the scene with a Black Pro Mist filter or whatever you like.

 

[Scott Crawley]

...And I saw a couple of these 'holes' in Mark's test of the Dragon...

Yes, those "holes" are clipped (peaked). Mark allowed them to clip in order to demonstrate the full range of the Dragon and shared readings to help describe it. When you look at the hot spot in the fender of that car, what you are seeing is a reflection of the sun!!! At f45 no less! Do you know of a camera that can capture the sun without peaking? Can that camera also render details at f4 at the same time? Someone else said it; all cameras peak (or clip) at some point. It isn't a flaw, it is just the end of the scale. If you want to set the end of that scale at -1, go nuts. There are ways to do it in camera and in post.

Mark could have taken steps to expose the car without clipping because he has that kind of control of his exposure. You can too.

 

[Scott Crawley]

Exactly! Thank you.

You can not really properly judge the highlight clipping in Mark's test images because he never tells us how many
Foot Candles or Foot Lamberts etc. where there before him when he set his exposures.
Perhaps if he simple stopped down an extra stop or two this discussion would not be happening.

 

[Luis Otero]

Antonio,

I will ask you this question with the upmost level of respect: haven't you used any of the information, concepts clarification or others perspectives discussed here to try to make sense of what needs to be done to use Red under extreme highlights? Maybe you need come back later, and go over all the information and concepts discussed on this thread and try to merge it with your own in-depth knowledge to come out with the way to accomplish your goal to use Red on extreme highlights.

Respectfully,

 

[António Fagundes]

Antonio,

I will ask you this question with the upmost level of respect: haven't you used any of the information, concepts clarification or others perspectives discussed here to try to make sense of what needs to be done to use Red under extreme highlights? Maybe you need come back later, and go over all the information and concepts discussed on this thread and try to merge it with your own in-depth knowledge to come out with the way to accomplish your goal to use Red on extreme highlights.

Respectfully,

Luis, of course I understand the concepts of what some people have kindly suggested here, and thanks for that clarification about the soft 3D Lut grade (which I don't think is the solution either, since a clipped highlight is backed in...)

The problem with the suggestions I got so far is that they are all words, no one has posted a picture to show a shot of a contrasty/hard lighting scene without being clipped, and explaining what they did for it not to clip.

No pictures!

I don't want to come of difficult, but in this business, pictures do speak louder than words.

Also at the moment, I'm prepping a shoot and neither my DP nor the client want to shot on Red. I do have the power to have the last say, but... it is a very contrasty set I'll be shooting, and to be honest I'm on the fence here, because on one side I know I can do it, I know Red can give me a better film than if I shoot it on the Alexa, but I will have to take on full responsability for my choice of camera... and if I end up with those windows clipped, I'll be fucked... And I don't need to put my career on the line for no camera... Too many clipped out films have ended in this agency's hands, and they might not know what it is, but they like the Alexa better, I know why; highlights. I also seen too many bad shot films on Red on TV, I would be weary too if I didn't know any better.

My Dp, just doesn't want to worry about the highlights, he wants to light up the place and do his thing and not having to be constantly checking out the false color monitor and tweaking the lights every time there's a Red shape alert in the false color monitor. So he just rather shoot on the Alexa too and just use his light meter and keep up with me and my pace.

I was trying to get some answers here today, but I got no real world examples to change my obsessive mind... so I guess that I'm going to cop out and use the Alexa this time.

 

[Scott Crawley]

The answers are here Antonio, if only you understood them. Rather than making an effort to actually understand you keep putting it back on us to provide pictures proving concepts of basic photography. I'm sorry but that is more effort than I am willing to give. You want explanations and pictures to prove it? Get a book.

Sincere best wishes with your project. I hope your DP is smarter than you make him sound.

Sorry to Martin, and all who suffered this. Apparently it was all OT.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Luis, of course I understand the concepts of what some people have kindly suggested here, and thanks for that clarification about the soft 3D Lut grade (which I don't think is the solution either, since a clipped highlight is backed in...)

The problem with the suggestions I got so far is that they are all words, no one has posted a picture to show a shot of a contrasty/hard lighting scene without being clipped, and explaining what they did for it not to clip.

No pictures!

I don't want to come of difficult, but in this business, pictures do speak louder than words.

Also at the moment, I'm prepping a shoot and neither my DP nor the client want to shot on Red. I do have the power to have the last say, but... it is a very contrasty set I'll be shooting, and to be honest I'm on the fence here, because on one side I know I can do it, I know Red can give me a better film than if I shoot it on the Alexa, but I will have to take on full responsability for my choice of camera... and if I end up with those windows clipped, I'll be fucked... And I don't need to put my career on the line for no camera... Too many clipped out films have ended in this agency's hands, and they might not know what it is, but they like the Alexa better, I know why; highlights. I also seen too many bad shot films on Red on TV, I would be weary too if I didn't know any better.

My Dp, just doesn't want to worry about the highlights, he wants to light up the place and do his thing and not having to be constantly checking out the false color monitor and tweaking the lights every time there's a Red shape alert in the false color monitor. So he just rather shoot on the Alexa too and just use his light meter and keep up with me and my pace.

I was trying to get some answers here today, but I got no real world examples to change my obsessive mind... so I guess that I'm going to cop out and use the Alexa this time.

You must be kidding, as over exposed Windows is where epic out rules all other current cameras the most. The HDRx function goes far beyond what any other motion camera can achieve including film. If you do not have to much motion in the shot you can easily have an exterior that is clipping with 4 stops outside and still have proper exposure by setting the HDRx to that level. So if you are worried about that situation and reach for the alexa then my only guess is that you do not know much about the epic or it's HDRx. Learn about it before the shoot and your client will love it and your carrier will make a leap in the right direction... Or you can go shoot it with the alexa and learn nothing.

 

[Jon Carr]

Luis, of course I understand the concepts of what some people have kindly suggested here, and thanks for that clarification about the soft 3D Lut grade (which I don't think is the solution either, since a clipped highlight is backed in...)

The problem with the suggestions I got so far is that they are all words, no one has posted a picture to show a shot of a contrasty/hard lighting scene without being clipped, and explaining what they did for it not to clip.

No pictures!

I don't want to come of difficult, but in this business, pictures do speak louder than words.

Also at the moment, I'm prepping a shoot and neither my DP nor the client want to shot on Red. I do have the power to have the last say, but... it is a very contrasty set I'll be shooting, and to be honest I'm on the fence here, because on one side I know I can do it, I know Red can give me a better film than if I shoot it on the Alexa, but I will have to take on full responsability for my choice of camera... and if I end up with those windows clipped, I'll be fucked... And I don't need to put my career on the line for no camera... Too many clipped out films have ended in this agency's hands, and they might not know what it is, but they like the Alexa better, I know why; highlights. I also seen too many bad shot films on Red on TV, I would be weary too if I didn't know any better.

My Dp, just doesn't want to worry about the highlights, he wants to light up the place and do his thing and not having to be constantly checking out the false color monitor and tweaking the lights every time there's a Red shape alert in the false color monitor. So he just rather shoot on the Alexa too and just use his light meter and keep up with me and my pace.

I was trying to get some answers here today, but I got no real world examples to change my obsessive mind... so I guess that I'm going to cop out and use the Alexa this time.

The epic can handle whatever you need it to just like the Alexa if you light it well.

Here's 2 pictures from my ipad, disregard jpeg compression. First one is very contrasty with hard lighting, just a salt and pepper kino with cyan and a 300w blasting through the key hole. And the other one is a dolly shot around a that window where the epic heard on quite nice in the highlights. Which was just a 1.2k for fill in the room. All on Epic-MX. Nothing is clipped out, and the windows didn't fuck me. It's not that hard to do high contrast or you shouldn't need to worry much about a window if you light it well.

 

[Luis Otero]

Luis, of course I understand the concepts of what some people have kindly suggested here, and thanks for that clarification about the soft 3D Lut grade (which I don't think is the solution either, since a clipped highlight is backed in...)

The problem with the suggestions I got so far is that they are all words, no one has posted a picture to show a shot of a contrasty/hard lighting scene without being clipped, and explaining what they did for it not to clip.

No pictures!

I don't want to come of difficult, but in this business, pictures do speak louder than words.

Also at the moment, I'm prepping a shoot and neither my DP nor the client want to shot on Red. I do have the power to have the last say, but... it is a very contrasty set I'll be shooting, and to be honest I'm on the fence here, because on one side I know I can do it, I know Red can give me a better film than if I shoot it on the Alexa, but I will have to take on full responsability for my choice of camera... and if I end up with those windows clipped, I'll be fucked... And I don't need to put my career on the line for no camera... Too many clipped out films have ended in this agency's hands, and they might not know what it is, but they like the Alexa better, I know why; highlights. I also seen too many bad shot films on Red on TV, I would be weary too if I didn't know any better.

My Dp, just doesn't want to worry about the highlights, he wants to light up the place and do his thing and not having to be constantly checking out the false color monitor and tweaking the lights every time there's a Red shape alert in the false color monitor. So he just rather shoot on the Alexa too and just use his light meter and keep up with me and my pace.

I was trying to get some answers here today, but I got no real world examples to change my obsessive mind... so I guess that I'm going to cop out and use the Alexa this time.

Antonio,

In Red R3D there is nothing backed-in if you use the monitor histogram to expose correctly. On the other hand, if you use Alexa's ProRes, the image is backed in. Also, what you are seeing in your monitor is a reference image since the grading is NOT done with RC3/RG3. Better option: tell your DP to monitor the entire shooting using the RAW setting on the monitor. That does not lie.

If exposed correctly, during post is when the soft LUT is used with RedLogFilm/RedColor3 to get the soft roll-off you want to attain (just for your information, RLF/RC3 is 100% Cineon, so it contains Log data). Believe me, I have received indescriptible footage with shots WAY overexposed, and covering most of the frame. If there were part of one of my productions, they would have been re-shot. I can tell you that even on those extreme cases I was able to recover 90-95% of the information on those clipped section. I cannot share those with you since they are not my property. I just received the footage, and my role was to grade it.

In addition, just put things in perspective: The Hobbit, Spiderman, TGWTDT, Flight, Elysium, etc, etc, etc, were all shot on Epic-X. You were asking for examples: there is your real-world footage. As you said, "pictures do speak louder than words". This camera is capable to acquire such incredible footage because proper lighting with proper exposures and good composition were part of the mix. And at the end they have good post production that delivered what was projected thousands, if not hundred of thousands of times all over the world.

Again, I hope you go over all this thread and put it all together, and you will have the formula for a successful images.

Respectfully,

 

[Elsie N]

Antonio,

In Red R3D there is nothing backed-in if you use the monitor histogram to expose correctly. On the other hand, if you use Alexa's ProRes, the image is backed in. Also, what you are seeing in your monitor is a reference image since the grading is NOT done with RC3/RG3. Better option: tell your DP to monitor the entire shooting using the RAW setting on the monitor. That does not lie.

If exposed correctly, during post is when the soft LUT is used with RedLogFilm/RedColor3 to get the soft roll-off you want to attain (just for your information, RLF/RC3 is 100% Cineon, so it contains Log data). Believe me, I have received indescriptible footage with shots WAY overexposed, and covering most of the frame. If there were part of one of my productions, they would have been re-shot. I can tell you that even on those extreme cases I was able to recover 90-95% of the information on those clipped section. I cannot share those with you since they are not my property. I just received the footage, and my role was to grade it.

In addition, just put things in perspective: The Hobbit, Spiderman, TGWTDT, Flight, Elysium, etc, etc, etc, were all shot on Epic-X. You were asking for examples: there is your real-world footage. As you said, "pictures do speak louder than words". This camera is capable to acquire such incredible footage because proper lighting with proper exposures and good composition were part of the mix. And at the end they have good post production that delivered what was projected thousands, if not hundred of thousands of times all over the world.

Again, I hope you go over all this thread and put it all together, and you will have the formula for a successful images.

Respectfully,

Well said, Luis

 

[António Fagundes]

Learn about it before the shoot and your client will love it and your carrier will make a leap in the right direction... Or you can go shoot it with the alexa and learn nothing.

Yes, that makes sense.

The epic can handle whatever you need it to just like the Alexa if you light it well.

Here's 2 pictures from my ipad, disregard jpeg compression. First one is very contrasty with hard lighting, just a salt and pepper kino with cyan and a 300w blasting through the key hole. And the other one is a dolly shot around a that window where the epic heard on quite nice in the highlights. Which was just a 1.2k for fill in the room. All on Epic-MX. Nothing is clipped out, and the windows didn't fuck me. It's not that hard to do high contrast or you shouldn't need to worry much about a window if you light it well.
View attachment 41356View attachment 41357

These two frames are rather beautiful Jon, although my doubts rely on more extreme lighting, as if the window in the second shot were completely blown out. How would that light spill and blown out highlight behave?

If exposed correctly, during post is when the soft LUT is used with RedLogFilm/RedColor3 to get the soft roll-off you want to attain (just for your information, RLF/RC3 is 100% Cineon, so it contains Log data). Believe me, I have received indescriptible footage with shots WAY overexposed, and covering most of the frame. If there were part of one of my productions, they would have been re-shot. I can tell you that even on those extreme cases I was able to recover 90-95% of the information on those clipped section. I cannot share those with you since they are not my property. I just received the footage, and my role was to grade it.

In addition, just put things in perspective: The Hobbit, Spiderman, TGWTDT, Flight, Elysium, etc, etc, etc, were all shot on Epic-X. You were asking for examples: there is your real-world footage. As you said, "pictures do speak louder than words". This camera is capable to acquire such incredible footage because proper lighting with proper exposures and good composition were part of the mix. And at the end they have good post production that delivered what was projected thousands, if not hundred of thousands of times all over the world.

Yes, this is something I will have to try for sure. As well as HDRx. I know Red produces wonderful images, that was never in question whatsoever. It's just a little problem regarding blown highlights and rolloff that I want to understand better.

You and a couple of other people have been extremely helpful Luis, thank you for your support. Reduser needs more people like you guys.