DRAGON - ITS THE REAL DEAL !!!!

[António Fagundes]

Hey Antonio,

Can you explain the technical details of this snapshot? Captured with great taste. The snow outside is mostly clipped. Nothing bad with it, though.

Cheers!

I don't know the movie, and I don't know what to say. I don't love it. The highlight outside is just normal is not that extreme... From what I can see, the exposure is mostly set to outside maybe 4/5 stops over as it is quite dark on the inside. Yes, the snow is clipping badly, and that might not even be snow... also Ewan's face is very magenta... and there's a lot of noise in the shadows.

 

[Scott Crawley]

You may be right. I don't remember if people were saying that, but I agree that might be a dubious statement. Brett does have a point. I guess it depends upon whether we are referring to "white" or "super white".

Have you considered the possibility that those shots clipped in camera and were brought down in post? I'm not saying they were because I don't know but it is possible.

I haven't seen Skyfall yet, so those shots were new to me and I was unaware of any of the deets. Thank you for those.

Hi Scott, the only info I have is that the first pic is from Roger Deakins from Skyfall, that we all know what shot on the Alexa on Arri Master Primes. And the other pics are from Oblivion, shot by Claudio Miranda on the F65. The point of me posting these pictures is that, people here said that technology wasn't good enough yet for a camera to capture extreme highlights without clipping. These prove them wrong I guess. And also, I was wondering if someone could post pics or video from any film shot on Red that shares this same kind of extreme lighting.

 

[Mike P.]

I still contend that if "Clarity" in the Alchemy Group can be controlled to just the highlights (80+IRE), when you apply negative values (-0.200 to -0.300) it actually blooms/blurs an incredible soft rolloff to highlights that would otherwise look harshly clipped. Problem is, as it stands, it softens the entire image (since you can't specific only the highlights)...

Similarly, if RED had their own MX/Dragon-specific noise reduction secret sauce in RCX, I bet you could get another stop or so out of MX's shadows without a noticeable quality loss (but at the cost of render time). I mean, if it's raw and nothing is baked in, and we're supposed to dial in sharpness to taste in post (unsharp mask and clarity) whilst rendering to dpx or aces or prores, then I don't see the harm in having even more control going from raw to the working (baked-in) codec when rendering out of RCX.

 

[António Fagundes]

You may be right. I don't remember if people were saying that, but I agree that might be a dubious statement.

Have you considered the possibility that those shots clipped in camera and were brought down in post? I'm not saying they were because I don't know but it is possible.

I think that's the problem. If you shoot them clipped, you can't recover that data back in post. I mean you can, but it largely depends on the kind of shot and I don't think it works very well if its very big areas of the screen and if you have to keep doing that in every shot of the movie, it will look fake, and it will cost a lot of hours to just fix something that should be broken anyway. Also, it won't look nearly as good as it does when the camera captures these highlights intact.

The Oblivion pics I posted, I think might be able to do on the Red, I'm thinking that you would have to underexpose quite a bit and then pull it back in the grade, like Harris Savides used to do on film, so maybe those examples weren't the best. But everything that includes bright skies and the sun in a very harsh/contrasty manner, I think that's where Red seems to have a problem.

 

[Scott Crawley]

I think that's the problem. If you shoot them clipped, you can't recover that data back in post.

Correct me if I am wrong, but there is no data in those areas, only an off white, or grey. That is why I say they may have been brought down in post.

 

[António Fagundes]

I still contend that if "Clarity" in the Alchemy Group can be controlled to just the highlights (80+IRE), when you apply negative values (-0.200 to -0.300) it actually blooms/blurs an incredible soft rolloff to highlights that would otherwise look harshly clipped. Problem is, as it stands, it softens the entire image...

Similarly, if RED had their own MX/Dragon-specific noise reduction secret sauce in RCX, I bet you could get another stop or so out of MX's shadows without a noticeable quality loss (but at the cost of render time). I mean, if it's raw and nothing is baked in, and we're supposed to dial in sharpness to taste in post (unsharp mask and clarity) whilst rendering to dpx or aces or prores, then I don't see the harm in having even more control going from raw to the working (baked-in) codec when rendering out of RCX.

Yes, I agree.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

I think that's the problem. If you shoot them clipped, you can't recover that data back in post. I mean you can, but it largely depends on the kind of shot and I don't think it works very well if its very big areas of the screen and if you have to keep doing that in every shot of the movie, it will look fake, and it will cost a lot of hours to just fix something that should be broken anyway. Also, it won't look nearly as good as it does when the camera captures these highlights intact.

The Oblivion pics I posted, I think might be able to do on the Red, I'm thinking that you would have to underexpose quite a bit and then pull it back in the grade, like Harris Savides used to do on film, so maybe those examples weren't the best. But everything that includes bright skies and the sun in a very harsh/contrasty manner, I think that's where Red seems to have a problem.

 

[Carlos Reyes]

Antonio, you're posting stills from two movies whose budget exceed $100M shot by world class cinematographers, there is so much more affecting this image than which camera they shot on.

 

[António Fagundes]

Correct me if I am wrong, but there is no data in those areas, only an off white, or grey. That is why I say they may have been brought down in post.

no Scott, because there is no data there, it's a white spot. You can bring everything down to pitch dark and that white (or grey) spot will remain. It will go from pure white to electronic grey... because it doesn't have any color either. You have to 'paint' over it. But there are other ways from what I read here, but they are all about 'fixing' and not about getting information back.

 

[Brett Harrison]

Alexa doesn't clip? What happens when you expose a scene with 17 stops of contrast on the Alexa? Magic? All cameras clip.

'Extreme highlights' - define that. How many stops above base exposure before highlights go 'extreme' - it's imprecise because it's not a standard term.

 

[António Fagundes]

Love this. What film is it from?

the window looks very good. Although it could be very easily controlled, as I'm sure it was, because it is not clipping. It is a small area of the frame but it's a very good job. Thanks for posting this Kemalettin.

 

[Elsie N]

Love this. What film is it from?

the window looks very good. Although it could be very easily controlled, as I'm sure it was, because it is not clipping. It is a small area of the frame but it's a very good job. Thanks for posting this Kemalettin.

I think you missed his point. '-)

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

Alexa doesn't clip? What happens when you expose a scene with 17 stops of contrast on the Alexa? Magic? All cameras clip.

'Extreme highlights' - define that. How many stops above base exposure before highlights go 'extreme' - it's imprecise because it's not a standard term.

yes..even human eye clips..
Antonio Fagundes get Alexa and shoot same scene with same lighting if you believe its all up to camera.(skyfall).
that screenshot is from 42 same movie that you posted

each camera has its own factors

which one looks sharper?
right click on photos for bigger view.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Dynamic rouding is a post process if it's done correctly even the worst clipping image will round of with nice blooming instead of harsh clipping white areas. I think to stop this discussion red should implement a "soft clip" slider in RCXP as it can be a very difficult thing to implement with only "one layer" grading. Basically you should grade your image under a soft clip 3Dlut then your whites will never go white and the transition from color to white will be soft and bloom no matter how hard you push the colours and contrast underneath that lut. Thats is actually very much how film colortiming works as the positive projector print actually never goes to full white and bleeds in highilights when over exposed. So alexa kind of have that in camera, RED leaves the option to the shot / colorist to keep things linear and clipping or steer the highlights where they want them. The main problem is that there is a lot of people that is unaware of how this works and then blame the camera. Atleast thats what I think.

 

[António Fagundes]

yes..even human eye clips..
Antonio Fagundes get Alexa and shoot same scene with same lighting if you believe its all up to camera..that screenshot is from 42 movie.same movie that you posted

Fortunately in my business I don't have to spend a single dollar to buy any camera. I rent them! I can rent any camera I want. I often choose Red, because that's the image I like. I like the workflow, I like how it reads light, I like its sharpness and I like its clean texture. Alexa is too much like film, and I honestly have had enough of film, especially ever since I started to shoot on the Red.

Except for strong contrasty highlights. But Alexa is not the only camera that managed to solve this very old digital flaw. And all I wish for is Red to do the same.

And no, I'm not a Alexa fan or a Reduser fanboy, I'm someone that loves making movies, I love a good image, and I hate people that accuse others of ignorance just because they have an opinion. Ignorance and arrogance is a deadly mix...

So the attitude keeps on coming but no pictures to prove me wrong!

The five of you should really get a life.

 

[Scott Crawley]

Although it could be very easily controlled, as I'm sure it was, because it is not clipping.

Green is clipped.

[

 

[António Fagundes]

Dynamic rouding is a post process if it's done correctly even the worst clipping image will round of with nice blooming instead of harsh clipping white areas. I think to stop this discussion red should implement a "soft clip" slider in RCXP as it can be a very difficult thing to implement with only "one layer" grading. Basically you should grade your image under a soft clip 3Dlut then your whites will never go white and the transition from color to white will be soft and bloom no matter how hard you push the colours and contrast underneath that lut. Thats is actually very much how film colortiming works as the positive projector print actually never goes to full white and bleeds in highilights when over exposed. So alexa kind of have that in camera, RED leaves the option to the shot / colorist to keep things linear and clipping or steer the highlights where they want them. The main problem is that there is a lot of people that is unaware of how this works and then blame the camera. Atleast thats what I think.

Sorry for my ignorance Bjorn, but what is a soft 3Dlut grade?

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

Fortunately in my business I don't have to spend a single dollar to buy any camera. I rent them! I can rent any camera I want. I often choose Red, because that's the image I like. I like the workflow, I like how it reads light, I like its sharpness and I like its clean texture. Alexa is too much like film, and I honestly have had enough of film, especially ever since I started to shoot on the Red.

Except for strong contrasty highlights. But Alexa is not the only camera that managed to solve this very old digital flaw. And all I wish for is Red to do the same.

And no, I'm not a Alexa fan or a Reduser fanboy, I'm someone that loves making movies, I love a good image, and I hate people that accuse others of ignorance just because they have an opinion. Ignorance and arrogance is a deadly mix...

So the attitude keeps on coming but no pictures to prove me wrong!

The five of you should really get a life.

thanks i have a good life props to RED!

From movie Halo 4: Forward Unto Dawn

gotta love the camera that shot this frame

 

[Elsie N]

Fortunately in my business I don't have to spend a single dollar to buy any camera. I rent them! I can rent any camera I want. I often choose Red, because that's the image I like. I like the workflow, I like how it reads light, I like its sharpness and I like its clean texture. Alexa is too much like film, and I honestly have had enough of film, especially ever since I started to shoot on the Red.

Except for strong contrasty highlights. But Alexa is not the only camera that managed to solve this very old digital flaw. And all I wish for is Red to do the same.

And no, I'm not a Alexa fan or a Reduser fanboy, I'm someone that loves making movies, I love a good image, and I hate people that accuse others of ignorance just because they have an opinion. Ignorance and arrogance is a deadly mix...

...

My Buddy!

Why didn't you say this in the first place rather than appear to be attacking the camera I love and respect and can easily avoid the pitfalls you seem think are unavoidable. Antonio, have you tried Reducation yet? Could really help you get past the clipping thing. Plus it could help you with the ingnorance... the arrogance is better left to life lessons. '-)

 

[Scott Crawley]

no Scott, because there is no data there, it's a white spot. You can bring everything down to pitch dark and that white (or grey) spot will remain. It will go from pure white to electronic grey... because it doesn't have any color either. You have to 'paint' over it. But there are other ways from what I read here, but they are all about 'fixing' and not about getting information back.

??? That was my point; there is no data in the white portions of any of your samples. They may no longer be peaked, but they have been blown out and realigned to a value just under peak.

Same in the red area here... one reading is R 247 G 252 B 256... blown out. In terms of highlight fall off, the green area is what we are interested in and it is excellent.

So the attitude keeps on coming but no pictures to prove me wrong!

The five of you should really get a life.

I am trying to have an intelligent conversation without attitude. I'm not sure what you are sensing with that regard. I have some time on my hands, and learn a lot when engaged in this kind of discussion on RedUser. I am hoping that you, or another reader might teach me something in the process. You see it is not that I have no life, but some of my love of life comes from learning about photography. Teach me something about photography instead of your character flaws.

As for pictures, I am attempting to use your own examples to show you how your argument may be flawed through mis-interpretation of the evidence. Maybe someone will provide a better analysis of the images and teach us both something.