DRAGON - ITS THE REAL DEAL !!!!

[António Fagundes]

I think Scott has a great point here.

Most experienced DPs will know how to control the highlights in an image, whether on the camera side or G+E. But what we all lack is time. And it is my experience that clients want more-better-faster-fix-it-in-post a lot these days.

So what a robust sensor gets you is the ability to move fast when you can't take the time to not, basically, shoot your highights like shit.

I think someone mentioned earlier that 12 stops is enough. Well, it is until you're out of time.

No, its not lack of knowledge, it's not lack of taste or ability to light. Those are all very poor excuses....

It's what it is. Extreme highlights.

I don't want to cause a fight, but here are two examples very similar to each other. One is clipping, the other isn't... If you can't see the difference in these two shots, you won't understand the problem anyway. Both are digital, and one of them is Red Epic.

Both had budget's north of 40 million. And are both from the same year.

Which blown highlight would you go for...?

These might seem like 'small' problems. But if you want to bring this kind of extreme highlight onto a bigger portion of the frame on the Red. You know you got a problem... unless you use HDRx...

But the funny thing is, it's actually quite hard to find a film shot on Red with extreme highlights... which to me suggests that DPs actually avoid them. I wonder why that is...

 

[Luis Otero]

I am no DP, but can you just:

1. use ND on windows, or
2. reduce lens aperture and increase the subject lights.

I just see that there is a technical cinematographic solution that can be used.

Again, I am not a DP, but I cannot understand why not to use any of the two solutions.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

These are two choices made in the grade, and maybe when shooting, we really have no way of knowing.

When my wife and I shoot, our stuff never looks quite like image no.2 in terms of hard highlights. I'm not saying no.2 is wrong, just that we don't make those choices. We frequently make windows roll-off like no.1, shooting with Epic - it's not that hard.

 

[Scott Crawley]

Actually you will find that both are clipping, one more than the other but not just because of overexposure (Which I presume was intentionally allowed) but also because of DOF. The highlight areas in the first are larger partly because they are OOF.

When I look at these I see different choices, not camera A v. camera B. One is a wide angle, the other a close up. They look different because of the lens, not the sensor. They look different because they are supposed to.

No, its not lack of knowledge, it's not lack of taste or ability to light. Those are all very poor excuses....

It's what it is. Extreme highlights.

I don't want to cause a fight, but here are two examples very similar to each other. One is clipping, the other isn't... If you can't see the difference in these two shots, you won't understand the problem anyway. Both are digital, and one of them is Red Epic.

Both had budget's north of 40 million. And are both from the same year.

Which blown highlight would you go for...?

These might seem like 'small' problems. But if you want to bring this kind of extreme highlight onto a bigger portion of the frame on the Red. You know you got a problem... unless you use HDRx...

 

[Elsie N]

Antonio, there's an old saying that goes something like "It's better to remain quiet and have people wonder if you know what you are talking about, than to continue to speak and prove that you don't. '-)

 

[Luis Otero]

Actually you will find that both are clipping, one more than the other but not just because of overexposure (Which I presume was intentionally allowed) but also because of DOF. The highlight areas in the first are larger partly because they are OOF.

When I look at these I see different choices, not camera A v. camera B. One is a wide angle, the other a close up. They look different because of the lens, not the sensor. They look different because they are supposed to.

I agree 100%, both are clipping. However, #2 is more pleasant to my eyes since there are more details. As a colorist, I use grading techniques on overexposed situations,like #1, to make it look more acceptable, as seen on that example.

But, without a doubt, both are clipping. Just #1 is either out of focus because of DOF, of defocused on post to mask the clipping.

 

[António Fagundes]

Antonio, there's an old saying that goes something like "It's better to remain quiet and have people wonder if you know what you are talking about, than to continue to speak and prove that you don't. '-)

No Elsie, quite the contrary. I do know what I'm talking about. But maybe you could expand as to why you say I don't. People go to the extent to say that bad clipping is because of lens choice... these excuses seem to go from ridiculous to just pure fun to read!

If you are so sure to tell me I don't know what I talk about. Walk the walk, like I do. Show me a picture shot on Red that proves I'm wrong.

Words are easy, but they prove nothing.

 

[Scott Crawley]

I have great respect for your eyes Luis. In a close up though, I frequently do not want more details in the BG. One of the reasons I personally will choose a longer lens for a close up is to reduce the amount of detail competing for the viewer's eye. I want to keep attention firmly on my actor and his face. It all depends on too many factors to list but usually it is a gut descision.

I agree 100%, both are clipping. However, #2 is more pleasant to my eyes since there are more details. As a colorist, I use grading techniques on overexposed situations,like #1, to make it look more acceptable, as seen on that example.

But, without a doubt, both are clipping. Just #1 is either out of focus because of DOF, of defocused on post to mask the clipping.

I know you were not addressing me directly, but are obviously referring to my remark. That remark was that the clipped areas in your first example were influenced equally by the lens and choice of exposure, and they probably had more influence than the sensor's characteristics. I did not characterize one as better than the other, though I do prefer less detail in close up BG's in most cases.

People go to the extent to say that bad clipping is because of lens choice... these excuses seem to go from ridiculous to just pure fun to read!

 

[António Fagundes]

Ok, different lens, same light.

And more examples of extreme highlights. Its not about using ND's or stopping the highlights short. Its exactly the opposite, sometimes you just want to let them blow out to complete white. And no, complete white is not clipping...

I would suggest that people post pictures or video to better understand this discussion. Because suggestions of lack of intelligence and expertise on exposing a shot are not only ridiculous but explain nothing for the sake of this discussion. As well as the sure ways of avoiding Red's clipping people mention here, would be great if they could actually post pictures of these sure ways. Otherwise this discussion is going nowhere...

We could start by someone posting films shot on Red with the same highlight design as in the pictures above.

 

[Luis Otero]

Scott,

Thanks for your compliment. Again, I agree 100% with your comments. As a matter of fact, for CU I prefer images captured the way you are explaining (long lensed) since as a colorist I do not need to re-create defocusing, specially in moving objects, to reduce BG details (and in this case mask the clipping).

My comment of preferring #2 is because it is a wide shot, and even though both have clipping, it is more pleasant since there is more details.

Cheers,

 

[Elsie N]

No Elsie, quite the contrary. I do know what I'm talking about. But maybe you could expand as to why you say I don't. People go to the extent to say that bad clipping is because of lens choice... these excuses seem to go from ridiculous to just pure fun to read!

If you are so sure to tell me I don't know what I talk about. Walk the walk, like I do. Show me a picture shot on Red that proves I'm wrong.

Words are easy, but they prove nothing.

It's just that post after post has explained to you how simple it is to correct or avoid what you keep harping on. If so many other people know how to fix/avoid these things and you don't, and even worse, refuse to acknowledge, then I think your insistence you know what you are talking about is falling on deaf ears.

 

[Luis Otero]

Antonio,

Love #2. Great artistic choice!


PS: Except the side windows that are clipped, the front/main window is not clipped.

 

[Brett Harrison]

complete white is not clipping...

Complete white is the definition of clipping. It's all in the progression of values approaching that point that make the difference.

You talked about Alexa not clipping. If that were true then the Alexa would have an infinite dynamic range. I think this is a case where someone is right about what they're referring to, but wrong about the terms of reference.

 

[Luis Otero]

Complete white is the definition of clipping. It's all in the progression of values approaching that point that make the difference.

Prime example is the image I was referring to (space ship). The side windows are clipped; even made part of the windows detail to disappear. On the front window, there is no clipping ( you can still see through details).

 

[Brett Harrison]

Here's a shot that I believe matches the style that Antonio is going for.

I remember this movie because I was stunned it wasn't shot on film. Beginners 2011. Really good movie.

 

[Scott Crawley]

Ok, different lens, same light.

It looks like it may be a different lens and same light, but I don't know if that is the case. There is more detail, so it may be a different lens or the same lens stopped down. Do you have first hand knowledge of the details? I can only reverse engineer the shot based upon what I know about lens and exposure.

And more examples of extreme highlights. Its not about using ND's or stopping the highlights short. Its exactly the opposite, sometimes you just want to let them blow out to complete white. And no, complete white is not clipping...

These are gorgeous an no they are not clipping, but I don't understand your point.

Since none of these were shot on Dragon, the point is OT though.

 

[António Fagundes]

It's just that post after post has explained to you how simple it is to correct or avoid what you keep harping on. If so many other people know how to fix/avoid these things and you don't, and even worse, refuse to acknowledge, then I think your insistence you know what you are talking about is falling on deaf ears.

No, that's not how this game rolls. The five of you that believe that I don't know what I'm talking about and have the perfect solution, should post the pictures to prove it! Just like I posted pictures to make my point, the same should be done to show me I'm wrong.

I want to be wrong. But I will only be wrong when I see it, not when you tell me!

And Elsie, if you don't have anything to add to the discussion, I would suggest you just step back. I'm a Red user, and I'm trying very hard to work out a problem I have when shooting Red, because I love to shoot Red, and I just don't want to see this problem on my footage. So with that attitude I really don't need you here. You are trying really hard to start up a fight, you're old enough to do better than that!

Thanks.

 

[Luis Otero]

Here's a shot that I believe matches the style that Antonio is going for.

I remember this movie because I was stunned it wasn't shot on film. Beginners 2011. Really good movie.

Hey Antonio,

Can you explain the technical details of this snapshot? Captured with great taste. The snow outside is mostly clipped. Nothing bad with it, though.

Cheers!

 

[Scott Crawley]

The exposure was set by the window light. All of the walls appear to be white so it is possible that the actor's face was lit by ambient light alone, though we don't know that to be the case. ND may have been applied to the windows.

Without exposure readings inside at the window, on the actor's face and in the shadow detail as Toia gave us, this tells us absolutely zero about the DR of the imaging device, whatever it was ... but maybe I'm dumb as a rock.

Here's a shot that I believe matches the style that Antonio is going for.

I remember this movie because I was stunned it wasn't shot on film. Beginners 2011. Really good movie.

 

[António Fagundes]

It looks like it may be a different lens and same light, but I don't know if that is the case. There is more detail, so it may be a different lens or the same lens stopped down. Do you have first hand knowledge of the details? I can only reverse engineer the shot based upon what I know about lens and exposure.

These are gorgeous an no they are not clipping, but I don't understand your point.

Since none of these were shot on Dragon, the point is OT though.

Hi Scott, the only info I have is that the first pic is from Roger Deakins from Skyfall, that we all know what shot on the Alexa on Arri Master Primes. And the other pics are from Oblivion, shot by Claudio Miranda on the F65. The point of me posting these pictures is that, people here said that technology wasn't good enough yet for a camera to capture extreme highlights without clipping. These prove them wrong I guess. And also, I was wondering if someone could post pics or video from any film shot on Red that shares this same kind of extreme lighting. Because I can't seem to find any, that's why I'm here... but which also leeds me to thinking that when a film requires this much extreme lighting, DP's tend to go for other cameras.

Am I wrong?