Birger Lens Mount Reservations

[Ivan Cortazar]

This is so disappointing. SO DISAPPOINTING!

I am speechless. One of the major reasons I put my deposit for the RED was because I have a lot of Canon lenses and I understood that I would be able to use them eventually with the Red One.

I'm extremely disappointed to both Red and Birger.

If we sent our Red to Birger and he installed it to avoid warranty issues, I thought it would be easy to create a PL to Canon adaptor so we could go from PL to canon without having to take the Birger mount out. Am I missing something?

I know Red is selling a lot of great PL lenses, but the RED system with the Canon lens is a great thing that adds a lot of value to a lot of RED users and it fits the Red "mantra" that I've been hearing for years.

It would be great if they could get to a better solution.

On the other hand with all the delays, weddings, 4ths of Julys and "shipping Next weeks" all the warranty issue won't be any issue... I feel so bad for the people with Paperweight-REds. It is so unfair. I guess I am just pissed and tired.

Note: For those who didn't get Birger's email, I've got mine on the bulk email.

 

[J.Burger]

This is not a working solution at all. We want to have this professional RED camera for all those high-end lenses AND the option to use Canon / Nikon lenses.

I’m sorry, I can’t believe that this cable or tiny wire is causing the problem here... If RED would be really interested in a working solution, they would have come up with something different.

Hey Jim & Jarred, can you give us a clear statement that you really understand our needs at this point too, please. THANK YOU

I should point out that P+S and Birger have an opportunity here.

P+S needs to understand that they are in the same boat in regards to Warrenty.

But what would you all say if you sent the Camera somewhere to have the P+S mount installed, and then you never had to worry about it again?

Jay is right. Now, with a one time installation of the IMS from P+S, all could be done if there would be also a Birger/P+S EF Canon mount. This is now the only hope left to us.

NOW let’s pray that RED , P+S and Erik will find a round table to sit on together…

Again, all this will cause a lot of time… delays … sh***t – this is somehow unbelievable, considering how many working hours are already spent on this issue.


THIS IS REALLY DISAPPOINTING

I met with P+S at cinegear... They are going to meet with us soon.

Jarred, was there a contact to P+S after cinegear yet?


.

 

[A. Bastaki]

you know.. the pics of this thing... of the installation were like there.. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGES ago.

why bitch about it now? thats unfair.

 

[Thom Steinhoff]

My best solution:

1) Red licenses/buys technology
2) Red mods the mount to fit with their current shimless design
3) Red installs first time including factory mod to pull power from inside the camera
4) Camera returned with pl mount easily field reswappable with warranty intact
5) We all live happily ever after

 

[Adam Levins]

Wow, this is a real bummer...

Anyone from RED that is in a position to give your customers more info on this please do so.

Jarred, I believe it was you that first voiced the warranty issue, care to share the current status from the RED side?

 

[Jason Sinclair]

I gather the meeting on tuesday went ahead after Jim had spent an enormous amount of time on the 4.5 resolution thing. He was not in the proper mental mind space to deal with it properly. He is the only person who can make this decision and he has taken time off because of so many customers asking for this and that. The problem right now is you guys. Just Fu$%^& relax.

Things go wrong when people stress and that includes the customers. So everyone take five and relax a few days. This pushing and demanding is making things a lot worst than it already is. Jim has always shown to be wise and fair in his decisions and has never been otherwise so deserves the benefit of the doubt on this. He has been working on b16 and 4.5k and prelim on scarlet and epic as well as getting the orders through. He has been working inhumane hours. The guy is only human. He needs a few days rest in order to make the appropriate solution of which he is well apt.

 

[Steven-Marc C.]

Somehow it seems even more risky sending the camera back to the States for installation of the mount than doing it ourselves, unless it involves the use of some high end machinery unavailable in France. The whole situation around this mount is really mind-boggling. It is an extremely clever and useful design for so many shooting situations! Not to mention all the indies who bought the camera and simply can't afford PL lenses. It would be such a shame not being able to use it. Is there really no way to make sure this i-data cable doesn't short, now that we know about it? Erik could ship the mounts with detailed instructions, huge warnings in red, a video of the installation process, etc. Risking to void the warranty is not an option for us given the current state of things, neither is shipping the camera back and forth from France for installation (don't want to go through that fedex/customs nightmare again unless absolutely necessary). I am still hopeful that a solution satisfying for all involved parties will be found.

 

[Andrew M.]

I remember the i/ interface was disabled in one of the builds for some time, left in inactive state because of some electrical problems when installing lenses that support i/ and have connectors for it on the lenses. If it is correct what I remember then i/ interface could be optionally disabled in to the 0V state if possible in the future firmware update as a menu option.

If not possible then paying 2X$100 for shipment by 200 initial Birger mount owners is $40,000
Well, this increases cost of Birger mount by $200 that could be used as a insurance fund instead of shipping. If someone will screw up installation (except putting screwdriver in to the Mysterium) and blew up i/ interface connected card, then this fund will pay for repair.

Basically for $200 extra you get the insurance if you break camera while installing the mount.

So the whole issue is worth $200, basically.

 

[Rami Mustakim]

I remember the i/ interface was disabled in one of the builds for some time, left in inactive state because of some electrical problems when installing lenses that support i/ and have connectors for it on the lenses. If it is correct what I remember then i/ interface could be optionally disabled in to the 0V state if possible in the future firmware update as a menu option.

If not possible then paying 2X$100 for shipment by 200 initial Birger mount owners is $40,000
Well, this increases cost of Birger mount by $200 that could be used as a insurance fund instead of shipping. If someone will screw up installation (except putting screwdriver in to the Mysterium) and blew up i/ interface connected card, then this fund will pay for repair.

Basically for $200 extra you get the insurance if you break camera while installing the mount.

So the whole issue is worth $200, basically.

Hey... Why not
Erik what do you think?

 

[Geo]

I have a fair collection of Canon EF glass, so for me the Birger mount is the key to shooting Ultra HD using a Red. I am waiting in anticipation to see what the final proposal from Red is going to be concerning the fitting, the warranty and the shipping considerations of taking the Birger option.

Question: Is this too simple a solution, Birger ships mount to Red, Red fit Birger in place of PL to warranty standard, Red ships to client. Minimal cost, job done properly, client happy?.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Somehow it seems even more risky sending the camera back to the States for installation of the mount than doing it ourselves, unless it involves the use of some high end machinery unavailable in France. The whole situation around this mount is really mind-boggling. It is an extremely clever and useful design for so many shooting situations! Not to mention all the indies who bought the camera and simply can't afford PL lenses. It would be such a shame not being able to use it. Is there really no way to make sure this i-data cable doesn't short, now that we know about it? Erik could ship the mounts with detailed instructions, huge warnings in red, a video of the installation process, etc. Risking to void the warranty is not an option for us given the current state of things, neither is shipping the camera back and forth from France for installation (don't want to go through that fedex/customs nightmare again unless absolutely necessary). I am still hopeful that a solution satisfying for all involved parties will be found.

I have been sitting on the sidelines a bit because I want to give Jarred, Jim, and Stuart a chance to get some sleep and then maybe rethink this policy.

But I've read a lot of these posts and getting a few PMs - Jay makes a lot of good points and everything Steven-Marc says is right on point. I just wanted to clarify regarding this one thing: "unless it involves the use of some high end machinery unavailable in France."

The birger mount is pretty darn easy to install - it is just as easy - if not easier than installing the nikon mount. It does not require any special machinery to install - just a couple of allen wrenches that Birger can supply. The i/data cable is harder to deal with on the nikon mount than it is on the birger mount - not that hard either way. I believe if you are capable of mounting the red accessories such as the red bottom plate, red cradle, red handle mount, etc. and plugging in the various connectors - you are capable of safely removing the PL mount and mounting the birger mount.

And remounting the PL is just as simple and because with the new version of Birger both the RED PL and the birger have their own backfocus mechanisms - you don't lose your backfocus. In fact with Birger and a $20 Nikon to EOS adapter you could go from the RED PL to using a Nikon on Birger - without having to readjust backfocus which you would have to do going from RED PL to RED Nikon!


----
If you have one of the earlier cameras where the screws were overtorqued at the factory (and some actually fused) you have a small additional problem - which you would have also with the Nikon mount - because those screws in the front are stuck. There is a fairly straightforward procedure (now that we have had to figured it out!) where you totally loosen the locking screws on the outer adjustment ring - you just lose your backfocus setting. Once you have the screws replaced you would be able to go back and forth without losing backfocus.

 

[JoshBertrand]

Yeah, this makes a lot of sense. I installed the Nikon mount myself, and I am definitely not technically adept with small bits like that. What we really need is a good set of clear instructions, an OPTION to send our camera in to Birger for install, and a caveat in the warranty that damage caused by 3rd party mounts are not covered in the warranty. This should cover all the bases right?

I too hope this get sorted out soon.

 

[Ed Watkins]

I'm not sure why every one is so angry about this. Sure the situation is not ideal, few things ever are, but the issue has been resolved. Birger can install the mount and you keep the warranty with RED.

RED are not obliged to warranty any 3rd party lens solutions. They set out to build a 4K digital Cinema camera, hence the camera comes with PL (cinema) lenses, not DSLR lenses. You knew this when you bought/ordered the camera. They said there would be a Canon mount, well here is one, they never said how easy the installation would be. Frankly, we were spoiled by the surprising ease of swapping the Nikon mount.

You wouldn't get Sony, Panasonic or Arri bending over this far for owners wishes. You should applaud RED not berate them.

When the Birger mount was first announced I wondered about how easy the installation would be, and was prepared to cancel my order if it proved beyond me. It is, an I have. It's a shame, but not entirely unexpected.

If you really just want to use Canon lenses then there is no issue. Pay Birger to switch the mount and keep your warranty.

If you want to switch regularly between DSLR lenses and PL's, then the Birger mount may not be the best option. Perhaps a Nikon, or IMS mount would better suit.

Failing that, screw the warranty, insure the camera, and take it on and off as you see fit. It's your call, but it's certainly not the one I'm making.

 

[Kenn Christenson]

Like Erik said in his email - if you haven't already, contact Red and let them know you want them to change their policy.

I think having to pay for any repairs caused by a faulty installation of the Birger mount is more than fair, IF we can still maintain warranty coverage for any other fault with the camera.

 

[donatello b]

seems it has to be more then the i-data cable ?
this i-data cable currently is useless ... there's no approx date when it will become useful ... AND if it did work how many owners are really going to use i/lens ? ... i have no plans for i/data lens ... if the i-data cable is the item that voids the warranty then perhaps those that have no plans to ever use i-data lens could have it removed and then be able to change between Birger & PL ? ....

 

[Clint Johnson]

I remember the i/ interface was disabled in one of the builds for some time, left in inactive state because of some electrical problems when installing lenses that support i/ and have connectors for it on the lenses. If it is correct what I remember then i/ interface could be optionally disabled in to the 0V state if possible in the future firmware update as a menu option.

If not possible then paying 2X$100 for shipment by 200 initial Birger mount owners is $40,000
Well, this increases cost of Birger mount by $200 that could be used as a insurance fund instead of shipping. If someone will screw up installation (except putting screwdriver in to the Mysterium) and blew up i/ interface connected card, then this fund will pay for repair.

Basically for $200 extra you get the insurance if you break camera while installing the mount.

So the whole issue is worth $200, basically.

And if two people damage their Red Camera to the point where replacement is the only option... the money is gone and the other 98 people are out of luck. There is no real way to estimate the competence of the people who will be installing this and that is the concern of Red. I've known creatives who have the ability to craft a great story or create a beautiful image- who couldn't fit a round peg into a round hole and who would resort to using a hammer to get that round peg into the square hole.

What happens if ten of those hundred destroy the innards of their Red and a further thirty do $5,000 worth of damage? Suddenly we're looking at a third of a million dollars.

It is an unfortunate confluence of events:

1) We ordered the Birger mount and made plans around it based on the stated plans of Red and Birger that were made with the best intentions.

2) Based on the enthusiastic response of the Red User community, Birger invested a great deal of time and money into developing the mount and gearing up to produce it in the quantity that the market demanded.

3) There was a communication breakdown between the two incredibly busy companies because they were so focused on their own piece of the puzzle.

4) Red received a camera that had been badly damaged by the installation of Birger mount and realized that the removal of their PL mount and the adjustable plate underneath was a warranty voiding procedure that not only could result in severe damage to a camera but in fact had done so.

Now we are left with what appears to be an intractable problem:

a) A large percentage of the people who ordered the Birger did so with the intention of swapping regularly between that and the PL mount. Even if they expected to use only the Birger mount, they didn't plan on sending out their camera, often half way round the world, to get it installed. The shipping and insurance costs aren't inconsequential to those who have stretched themselves to their limit with the intention to go with the far less expensive EOS lenses. This is the price of one of those lenses. It is also an unknown time frame here, the shipping and installation could take weeks or even months if the backlog is great enough.

b) Birger is left with a great pile of parts that, if this solution is the only one, will sit gathering dust as most of the people who ordered the mount have no choice but to cancel. They will have wasted a great deal of money and thousands of hours working on this. That is if most people cancel their order- the other possibility isn't any better. They would be faced with a flood of cameras in need of mounts that they would have to provide safe storage, tracking and security for, set aside an assembly area and dedicate personnel to this assembly... it will be another investment of even more money and time based on the possibility that a lot of people will still get the mount. Uncertainty and a very real danger of throwing good money after bad.

c) Red is looking at an unknown level of risk with this mount as it is. They can't guess at how many cameras will come in with this problem and they are not going to repair them under warranty when the installation clearly involves actions that are declared to be warranty voiding. It seems that they also have no way of isolating what can and can not be damaged by that installation so they are unable to do a "partial voiding" of the warranty.

For those yet to have their Red shipped and whom are willing to start with, and stay with, the Birger mount, it would be the best option for Red to forgo installing their mount and ship to Birger for the aftermarket installation. This would be the minimal fuss for the few who can work with this limitation.

I can't switch to the Birger mount full time since I am often working with people who use PL mount lenses exclusively. There is a drought of PL lenses out in the world with half a year or more wait list that is growing daily... but that is not relevant to me since I can't afford to drop a couple hundred thousand dollars to buy them anyway.

The main culprit here is the lack of communication between Birger and Red during the development of the mount. But remember, there is no bad guy in all this, simply a communications break down.

That said...
I can not switch to Birger full time.
I can not buy a set of PL lenses.
I do not think that I am alone in this.

 

[Michael Hastings]

seems it has to be more then the i-data cable ?
this i-data cable currently is useless ... there's no approx date when it will become useful ... AND if it did work how many owners are really going to use i/lens ? ... i have no plans for i/data lens ... if the i-data cable is the item that voids the warranty then perhaps those that have no plans to ever use i-data lens could have it removed and then be able to change between Birger & PL ? ....

bingo!

Birger can install the mount and you keep the warranty with RED.

RED are not obliged to warranty any 3rd party lens solutions. They set out to build a 4K digital Cinema camera, hence the camera comes with PL (cinema) lenses, not DSLR lenses. You knew this when you bought/ordered the camera. They said there would be a Canon mount, well here is one, they never said how easy the installation would be. Frankly, we were spoiled by the surprising ease of swapping the Nikon mount.

You wouldn't get Sony, Panasonic or Arri bending over this far for owners wishes. You should applaud RED not berate them.
...

Respectfully, Ed I think you are wrong on all of these counts:

1) A REQUIRED Birger install is a bad solution for a number reasons - many already pointed out.

2) Nobody is asking RED to warranty the third party product - Birger warrants its own product - But more importantly

2a) We need to be clear on this: it isn't reasonable and we aren't asking RED to warrant if we screw up the install - if that happens then we need to pay to repair that which we broke. But,

2b) It isn't hard to install - I'll say it again - not substantially harder than to install the Nikon mount

2c) There is nothing significantly different as regards to difficulty OR DANGER to the camera when you remove the adjustable portion of the PL mount as opposed to the front portion that you remove to get to install nikon.

2d) and this is the biggy - ALL WE ARE ASKING IS DON'T TELL US WE VOID THE WARRANTY WHEN WE REMOVE THE ADJUSTABLE PORTION PL. That violates both the overall utility of the Birger mount and our reasonable expectations - specifically under the announcement in 2007 which many relied upon AND MORE GENERICALLY what could commonly be expected with this level of camera.

3) It is wrong to say that Sony, Panasonic, Arri do not bend over this far for owners wishes - I have personal experience with all of them going out of their way to assist in internal repairs and mods. As an example near to this situation, for our broadcast housing for the Varicams we would wire into the lens cable or make an adapter cable, to get at the iris so we could control iris without buying (and making separate controls for) the $2000 ccu box. This required splitting the voltage circuit from the camera lens connector to the lens - in other words this was messing with full 12 volt power at both the camera and the lens so obviously the same kind of risk. When I asked the Fujinon engineer if he could make me a "fujinon for dummies" diagram of how we would do this since it required two 12 pin hirose connectors, multiple wire taps and resistors plus a double throw switch he said "How about I just make you one for a sample?" And then the next morning I got a FEDEX box - at their expense - with a little project box with a fully wired Hirose on each end and all of the internal wiring with the resistors! No charge! Ready to go!

These companies understand that they sell a highend product that is intended to be used to make cutting edge, high quality images that sometimes require pushing the envelope and that they can't void the warranty when people do something a little different as long as it is reasonable.

OH, BTW to add to what donatello said. There are some VFX customers that really need lens data - but even in the PL world their is a very, very small percentage that have cooke i/data and RED doesn't support ARRI LDS. Yet Birger can give us - as soon as the camera is ready to accept it (and birger doesn't need the i/data cable, it uses the RS232 port) extremely accurate iris, focus, and zoom data BECAUSE IT'S ALREADY THERE ON EVERY EF LENS and BIRGER is reading it all the time anyway.

 

[Harmonica]

I'm not sure why every one is so angry about this. Sure the situation is not ideal, few things ever are, but the issue has been resolved. Birger can install the mount and you keep the warranty with RED.

I'll spell it out for you:

If Erik is installing mounts, not only will this add cost and considerably add more wait time, but will also undoubtedly push the production of the knobs even further back. Even if I did decide to install it myself, I'd still be without a knob. I might as well cancel my Birger reservation and wait for the EPIC! AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRGH!!!!!! Whoa, I feel dizzy...

 

[jaadgy akanni]

I'll spell it out for you:

If Erik is installing mounts, not only will this add cost and considerably add more wait time, but will also undoubtedly push the production of the knobs even further back. Even if I did decide to install it myself, I'd still be without a knob. I might as well cancel my Birger reservation and wait for the EPIC! AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRGH!!!!!! Whoa, I feel dizzy...

...And the Nikon mount would take forever to come to completion. What a nightmare.

 

[Harmonica]

I can not switch to Birger full time.
I can not buy a set of PL lenses.
I do not think that I am alone in this.

I'm in the same boat. Until they fix this nightmare, Red is back to "SCAM" status as far as I'm concerned.

(but I know Red loves us and won't leave us in this terrible mess. Right, Red? )