ARRI ALEXA LF - 4k, FullFrame announced

[Harcharan Singh]

Alexa LF

Alexa LF

Very true.

I own and run a rental house in Madrid, Spain.

These days Alexa Mini cameras are the ones with more demand (and maybe followed by Amiras, XT, SXT and early Classic/Plus models, and then the other brands). Sony's have good reputation in terms of image quality, but most people complain abour their menu systems (F55) and size/weight (F65). That may change with the new Sony Venice, which I believe has had a well reception, though no one has already used it the field. RED lost its moment when they released (IMHO) a very flawed Dragon sensor, with a color science that wasn't reliable enough, and caused red noise even at low ASA settings. Then they had to introduce swappable OLPF's to try to fix that, make people learn (including) myself) the hard way about black shading (I kinda mastered it an even teached it to others!)... and the rental market went straight to the already well known and established Alexas and Amiras. That's the truth. People with the power to decide the shooting format (producers, directors, cinematographers) just wanted ARRIs.

As a DP I like what you could do with an Epic Dragon, I found the look and resolution to be very nice after RED solved most of the problems... but since I owned the cameras I knew I could trust them, something most DP never did either because they weren't owners of had heard horror stories about noise and black shadings. I've always thought that DSMC2 came much earlier than it should and that was planned, and that was due to the fact that the DSMC1 bodies and Dragon (which required a very high temperature to give its best performance) couldn't allow the sensor to shine.

Weapon was way overpriced and though RED offered us owners discounts to replace our cameras, I did know from day 1 that I wasn't going to follow the upgrade path because the demand wasn't RED cameras: everybody with a decent budget wanted ARRI's.

I kinda feel betrayed by RED when they released the Helium sensor, as my previous Dragon investments, still DSMC1, which were in demand for lower budgeted jobs, had seen its value lowered by the brand itself very quickly. I never owned an Helium, but I can understand how their owners feel these days after the release of another sensor, Monstro. Then I decided to jump ship, buy some more ARRIs and sell the remaining RED cameras as soon as possible. With all these new releases, new sensors, new names, new gadgets being released so often, I just can't see REDs as a good investment. Just have a look at the second hand market of DSMC2 bodies, and how much they sell for these days.

With this ALEXA LF movement, ARRI has taken care of all the Alexa Mini owners in the world, as their cameras will be used together with the LF and 65 if 4K isn't a must (i.e. Netflix). And with its excellent 3.4K ARRIRAW or 3.2k Prores XQ, they will provide great images for years. I just can't mix a Dragon with an Helium or Monstro, since they are all different sensors. Even with their 4K 16/9 mode, which has a diagonal of 36+mm, they have taken care of owner of most Super 35 glass, as many modern sets will still cover from their 25mm / 32mm lenses, which will be wider-angle anyway (so less need for lenses below 24-25mm). Don't know if some discount or special price will be offered to SXT owners (I know they offered upgrades to SXT to some XT owners).

ARRI has proved to have an excellent sensor since 2010 or 2011, when it was first introduced. During that time, I've seen Mysterium-X, Dragon, Helium and Monstro. Still haven't met anyone (from assistants, directors, cinematographers, production companies) preferring RED if it's not from a money related point of view. I've met lots of people that were students five years ago, started DPing commercials, shorts, etc. shooting RED and, as soon as they have an industry career well established and moved to bigger assigments, they all switched to ARRI.

Does this happen only in Spain or everywhere? Because this is what I've seen during the last six years owning a rental house here and owning RED cameras till a couple of weeks ago.

I think ARRI has put the last nail in coffin for lot of cameras specially
in the Rental market ie caneras in the same price range and Monstro Vv
is one of them...,
Red should seriously think of reducing the price of Monstro to remain
in market....a serious thought

 

[Alex.Mitchell]

The great thing about shooting in 2018 is that there doesn’t have to be a “best” camera; only the camera that is best for your project. Now we have yet another option, which I plan on welcoming with open arms.

 

[Joel Arvidsson]

Why all the complaining! Those who thinks Alexa is better, just get an Alexa. Simple as that, why cry here about it? Ok knock me down now=)
I think its great that Arri finally climb up to meet the demands from Netflix. It took a few years but hey they made it. Great! 4k and above is what we want here. In this age where so many great cameras are made it should be no problem to shoot something great even if you don't have the newest camera model. Soon we all be shooting h4 with our phones anyway

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

Love red but sold mine and bought a mini. I'll probably jump back on the train when the new body comes in a couple years

 

[Erich Roland]

The good news for Red is these Alexa-LF cameras are very expensive and back to huge and heavy. So for the many-many users who thought that an Alexa Xt sized camera was behind them forever, now have to back track into that world in order to buy into Arri's version of 4k. Not everyone will want to pony up those prices or give up the mobility and weight gains they have realized over the last few years with the Mini and Red products. This will keep a bit of an anchor on the Arri 4k train until a Mini version comes out.... and who knows how long that will be. Id bet Arri could release a smaller Carbon Fiber version whenever they want but the timing will likely depend on the sales of this LF camera.

 

[paulcurtis]

Good god guys, really? Panic stations?

Well, here's some news. 99.9% of your customers (be it netflix, universal, some small business or the guy over the road) do not care one bit about how the pixels were created. They just care that the pixels work as a story or whatever it is you're doing for them.

However, we do care but perhaps too much. We over analyse because when we're not shooting that's what we like to do (that's 90% of red user!) but we are such a minority.

Now correct me if i'm wrong but this is basically 2 normal alexa sensors stacked together?

So hands up anyone has worked on a pixel by pixel level in post on alexa images? They're not unicorn dust are they, they're just images that have noise, can be exposed properly or can be utterly fcuked by someone who doesn't know what they're doing. I've seen and worked with some horrendous alexa stuff.

So actually nothing has really changed. Sure, if you make your money renting gear then the market has changed a bit as it always does. But if you earn a living shooting pretty pictures then you can still do that.

IMHO i actually prefer Red over Alexa but there you go.

I mean we have Venice now, we have a new Alexa and also a new Red.

Isn't this just the usual cycle of changes?

I seem to be failing to understand why the bottom has just fallen out of the world?

(super jet lagged so perhaps a bit grumpy)

cheers
Paul

 

[Thai Christen]

Which camera you own does not get you jobs.
It is your skills, your creativity, your marketing strategy and business accumen.
And of course luck meeting the right person at the right time who can push your carreer.

Nevertheless, I am very happy to be owner of Red cameras because it gives me the freedom to shoot whenever I want without the troubles going through rentals. In my opinion, EpicW is currently Red best bang for the buck in terms of price/value. I cannot speak for others, but I am making profit out of my EpicW only after one year. And I am not thinking of upgrading at all. Why should I?

Alexa LF and Monstro is a lot of money and out of reach for many owner operator. If you shoot in this segment, production budget will cover rental cost. So why owning? I am not sure.
However, if I own a camera rental business and have the cash, I would rather invest in Alexa LF than Monstro.

 

[Stuart Hooper]

I don't think I'd believe in anything anymore, if it wasn't for my lucky astrology mood watch...aaaaand that I can now have 4k 10bit video on a decent sized sensor that'll also do native anamorphic for a couple of grand in the palm of my hand, or rent any of the above mentioned beasts in a pinch for productions that need them. I don't think RED is going anywhere, exciting times to be making images.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Why all the complaining! Those who thinks Alexa is better, just get an Alexa. Simple as that, why cry here about it? Ok knock me down now=)
I think its great that Arri finally climb up to meet the demands from Netflix. It took a few years but hey they made it. Great! 4k and above is what we want here. In this age where so many great cameras are made it should be no problem to shoot something great even if you don't have the newest camera model. Soon we all be shooting h4 with our phones anyway

For the realists, it's not about complaining. Most of us are redusers and the release of this camera is for anyone, who hasn't their head stuck in the sand, a serious threat to any red business. This is a camera that's going to increase the already favored market of Alexa cameras and decrease the use of Red cameras. So it's not a complaint, it's a realization of what is actually going on. If Red keeps the price on Monstro, it's definetely gonna be a hard time to compete against the LF. It's almost the same price as it, but the LF has more momentum from high profile people in the industry. It's competition really, I would say Arri won this round. People don't believe it, but because the LF is over 4K and full frame, low light and so on, it's gonna eat up a lot of projects that could have been Red. We can't afford being naive about how much momentum Arri has. For me personally, If I'm doing a bigger gig, I would probably go with the LF. Better color science. Isn't that kinda sad for somone who's been a Red follower since the beginning? Helium didn't impress me, Monstro sure did, but not enough, the LF did. It's Red's move, do something disruptive, something other than resolution. Make Alexa colors suffer. So far, the Alexa colors are considered better by most high profile names and that counts for something.

 

[paulcurtis]

For the realists, it's not about complaining. Most of us are redusers and the release of this camera is for anyone, who hasn't their head stuck in the sand, a serious threat to any red business. This is a camera that's going to increase the already favored market of Alexa cameras and decrease the use of Red cameras. So it's not a complaint, it's a realization of what is actually going on.

Only if your main line of business is rental or do your red cameras suddenly stop producing images that a few weeks ago, were perfectly acceptable?

cheers
Paul

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Only if your main line of business is rental or do your red cameras suddenly stop producing images that a few weeks ago, were perfectly acceptable?

cheers
Paul

So you mean that Red is grounded to only sub lever projects for owner operators or low budget? Not to downplay anyones work, but if you look at the Oscar lineup, how many Red cameras have been used? Is it going to get better now that the LF is out? Nope. The high profile industry drives what cameras are popular. If big productions shot on the Blackmagic Ursa, that camera would be popular and a high profile camera, but it isn't. If most productions now turn from Red to the LF, that means less focus goes towards Red. For owner operators that would lead to the good old question of: "why aren't you using an Arri?". Most people I've talked to say the same thing... "no reason for a Red now". These are cinematographers and producers/directors and so on. If people aren't viewing this as a warning about what's to come, it's dangerous business for anyone who think too highly of Red. I'm sorry, but Arri's going full force now, I don't see any reason anymore to upgrade my Red camera, it would probably be a waste of money. Please prove me wrong... not by opinion, but by action.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

So you mean that Red is grounded to only sub lever projects for owner operators or low budget? Not to downplay anyones work, but if you look at the Oscar lineup, how many Red cameras have been used? Is it going to get better now that the LF is out? Nope. The high profile industry drives what cameras are popular. If big productions shot on the Blackmagic Ursa, that camera would be popular and a high profile camera, but it isn't. If most productions now turn from Red to the LF, that means less focus goes towards Red. For owner operators that would lead to the good old question of: "why aren't you using an Arri?". Most people I've talked to say the same thing... "no reason for a Red now". These are cinematographers and producers/directors and so on. If people aren't viewing this as a warning about what's to come, it's dangerous business for anyone who think too highly of Red. I'm sorry, but Arri's going full force now, I don't see any reason anymore to upgrade my Red camera, it would probably be a waste of money. Please prove me wrong... not by opinion, but by action.

1) They allways shoot the most common and most expensive camera.
2) They use Arri because they use exactly what you explained : all use it so we use it.


PS: remember 4k debayer is not 4k resolution, how could possibly this camera be accepted by Netflix? They just release a Red One... lol

 

[Reuben Evans]

And here I am shooting and delivering 8K "for something" that will be available this year. Wonder why.......

What is irrelevant for you is not necessarily irrelevant for others and perhaps the future. We had this conversation about 4K a few years ago too. Added to that the various things you can do with more resolution than not, but I'll keep those cards off the table for now.

There's a pattern, I dare say a rhythm, to this technological advancement in the motion picture industry.

The divisive concept of DR and Color mattering and Resolution not is an alarmingly silly perspective. Especially now. It all matters.

Dang, Phil just said somebody needs 8K screensavers. I wonder who

 

[Jan Schuster]

They just release a Red One... lol

I’d say they just released a response to the Monstro and DXL2. If LF is approved by Netflix etc I can see many large productions going with Arri LF over Monstro unfortunately.

But for myself and many others the compact size of a DSMC2 (5k or 8k) is essential day to day, quality is outstanding for every job, plus the cost to buy a Red is actually affordable for many. I love my Scarlet-W and I could see myself upgrading to Epic-w if the price was right and I think that’s where lots of people will be sitting for a while now. The owner/operator market is all Red from what I see and I see it staying that way. If arri releases a 4K mini it will still be hugely expensive and out of the price range of many. So that being said I’ll likely be on the Red program for many years to come.

I really hope a 5k s35 Monstro comes out in the next scarlet - I would be upgrading to that in a heart beat. Or Gemeni if that develops!

 

[Milano Questa]

And here I am shooting and delivering 8K "for something" that will be available this year. Wonder why.......

What is irrelevant for you is not necessarily irrelevant for others and perhaps the future. We had this conversation about 4K a few years ago too. Added to that the various things you can do with more resolution than not, but I'll keep those cards off the table for now.

There's a pattern, I dare say a rhythm, to this technological advancement in the motion picture industry.

The divisive concept of DR and Color mattering and Resolution not is an alarmingly silly perspective. Especially now. It all matters.

I wonder why Red is getting their ass handed to them by a 3.2k Camera....

Don't get me wrong phil, i love Red. but i feel like they're on a dead end with their resolution hype. You can only improve image quality so much with small pixels.

High res will cater to a very small group of people (like you) but for the general public it's useless, right now.

 

[Anton Esteban]

It's a real pity, RED had an opportunity to beat everyone at this large sensor game when they came out with VV. Instead, here we are today too expensive too late. Had they gotten their full sensor camera to the market when they said they would this would be a completely different conversation. They had a chance at a huge advantage and they missed it. If they dropped the price of the Monstro in half or less than they would regain some of this lost market share.

RED needs to take a page from the Germans. Is it better to be the most innovative but come up short on details or is it better to sit back and refine a product that will beat everyone and allow this piece of fine very expensive engineering to be a worthy longtime investment for its customers. I really wonder how much money Arri made from the Alexa mini. Just look at the resale value of that camera compared to a Dragon or even a Helium Weapon. How many people are selling their Helium cameras on reduser and most barely have any hours on it.

Hell someone posting on this chat is selling his Monstro's already. Not a good sign for whats to come for RED owners...

 

[Phil Holland]

I wonder why Red is getting their ass handed to them by a 3.2k Camera....

Don't get me wrong phil, i love Red. but i feel like they're on a dead end with their resolution hype. You can only improve image quality so much with small pixels.

High res will cater to a very small group of people (like you) but for the general public it's useless, right now.

You have a limited perspective in what you view is "getting their ass handed to them". There's more RED's out there than Arri cameras by a big margin.

I know it's hard to understand from whatever view port you are looking from, but with things like 4K over the air broadcast coming relatively soon most will wonder why 2K ever happened. I've been speaking hidden truths in many of my posts for years, like those who didn't things like 4K would catch on. There's a big emphasis in pushing content into the higher quality arena for very valid reasons. Arri calls out Netflix compatibility in their release for the LF and remember Netflix charges a premium for 4K streaming content. Shortly there will be a whole lot more 4K streaming in the home and beyond is around the corner for those who want to explore it.

Just a side note on "just resolution hype", you do know that Monstro has "more captured color" that say Dragon and the LF right? It's not just about pixel resolution, it's about what those pixels are doing for the image quality. The odd question that Anton puts forth is why would RED drop the price on Monstro when it's a slightly larger format in width for cinema application with more color and resolution than competing systems? It's already cheaper than the LF and RED has the "market share" in terms of camera sales.

I'm not a party pooper here, I'm happy Arri will be able to play on what will soon be a 4K and 4K+ only playground. It's good to have choices in this industry, but don't ignore a great deal of other things going on.

Based on the shear numbers of Minis I saw go up for sale last night mostly in the $55K range, it looks like the 4K bug has caught on. The only one I saw sell went for under $30K.

I guess it's all a matter of perspective. And hopefully what matters is you and what you're doing with your camera of choice. I have strong personal thoughts about what RED should do next, but I'll keep them off the air for now.

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

I wonder why Red is getting their ass handed to them by a 3.2k Camera....

The market is not always rational. And that's fine - that's how life is. What makes people think that the (now) old Alexa can be upscaled to 4K? By all means have your preference - that's why different companies make different cameras. But don't talk bullshit. My goodness, I've heard very stupid things by professionals, and I'm just lost for words.

Why did Windows dominate in the '90s? It shouldn't have, but it did. Now, ARRI is by no means the Windows of cameras. That would be an unfair analogy, and in fact I can't think of an analogy which would work. It is what it is.

Why do people shoot with DSLRs anymore, whether for photography or for video? They are the very worst choice for video, and yet people use them, although that is changing now. I have no idea. Sometimes the better products don't always win.

But, sometimes they do. Look at photography. Sony is going to out-sell Nikon in the top end, and eventually they'll out-sell Canon if they keep up their pace. I have no idea why Canon is popular, but there you go. I think some people don't like too many revolutions in their lives. Film to digital was easy, but for some reason DSLR to mirrorless makes people really defensive.

Don't get me wrong phil, i love Red. but i feel like they're on a dead end with their resolution hype. You can only improve image quality so much with small pixels.

I'm going to disagree with that. People laugh at the idea of scanning 16mm at 4K. But the point there is not to extract 4K worth of detail, but to provide the best possible scan of a 16mm frame. When you project that 4K file on a big screen, it will be smoother than a 2K file. Or, it can provide a better 2K file than a 2K scan could. This is not news, and one doesn't need to be an expert to know this sort of thing.

Having said all that, I think 16mm is great, and it has a great future. Even Super 8 has a future. Notice that Super 8 is a viable choice, but SD or even HD are no longer viable for the future. That sounds contradictory, but the two media cannot be directly compared.

EDIT:

You have a limited perspective in what you view is "getting their ass handed to them". There's more RED's out there than Arri cameras by a big margin.

Hmm. That makes sense. Lots of photographers would be using REDs, too, I imagine.

 

[Sabovic Adis]

It's a real pity, RED had an opportunity to beat everyone at this large sensor game when they came out with VV. Instead, here we are today too expensive too late. Had they gotten their full sensor camera to the market when they said they would this would be a completely different conversation. They had a chance at a huge advantage and they missed it. If they dropped the price of the Monstro in half or less than they would regain some of this lost market share.

RED needs to take a page from the Germans. Is it better to be the most innovative but come up short on details or is it better to sit back and refine a product that will beat everyone and allow this piece of fine very expensive engineering to be a worthy longtime investment for its customers. I really wonder how much money Arri made from the Alexa mini. Just look at the resale value of that camera compared to a Dragon or even a Helium Weapon. How many people are selling their Helium cameras on reduser and most barely have any hours on it.

Hell someone posting on this chat is selling his Monstro's already. Not a good sign for whats to come for RED owners...

Not that people always know what the heck they're doing, in general...:biggrinjester:

 

[David Peterson]

Keep in mind this "full size" camera from Arri is most likely designed to sell as many high priced Alexa-LF's as they can get away with before releasing the less expensive Mini sized version which is the camera the market would prefer (ie whats happened the last 2 years with Alexa). Maybe a year before that happens?

I expect you are right. Would recommend being very cautious about buying an Alexa LF if a Mini version is coming soon!

However I believe Arri when they say the Mini form factor can't fit the power needed by the Alexa LF.

But not every one NEEDS the high speed 4K 150fps of the Alexa LF, I'm sure if the Mini LF did 4K 60fps then many people would be content with that (or heck even 30fps 4K they could get away with selling in the Mini LF).