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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

ARRI ALEXA LF - 4k, FullFrame announced

Anton Esteban said:
Wait until a 4K Alexa mini comes out, then its truly going to be game over for every other camera manufacturer...

I work mainly in fashion and productions were more than happy to pay good money to rent my two RED's but now even they've started jumping ship and requesting Arri's.
Click to expand...

Keep in mind this "full size" camera from Arri is most likely designed to sell as many high priced Alexa-LF's as they can get away with before releasing the less expensive Mini sized version which is the camera the market would prefer (ie whats happened the last 2 years with Alexa). Maybe a year before that happens?
 
I'm sure comparing 8K Monstro footage to Arri 4.5K LF footage in 4K delivery resolution won't show any advantage of the Red's higher resolution. So this is what I predict:

Red is going to stay. But they are facing an even harder time in cinema and TV land than they already do now. DOPs, producers, directors, camera-assistants and last bot not least rental-houses prefer at large numbers Arri over everything else. And there are many reasons why. However, while cinema and TV rely mostly on rented gear and don't require more than excellent 4K footage, there are productions and markets in the higher end which don't.

Where Red can survive well is the cross-over market of high-end videography and photography which is currently growing impressively. Many photographers are turning more and more into video creatives and do hybrid jobs. In this market Monstro fits very well, much better than Arri, if they bring down prices in regions this market can afford. A Weapon 8K Monstro is much, much too expensive for the vast majority of professional private owners.

Because videography/photography will be the big chunk of Red productions the next generation of Red cameras will be full frame and above only. Thus, Red cameras will be more leaning towards photography than today, a better hybrid and better fit for photographers and hence compete more with Canon (and Sony probably) than Arri. This will have a clear effect on Red's price policy.

For the next gen. Red cameras the corner stones will be Vista Vision and/or full frame 4/3 sensor size, reasonable price tag (half, or a third of an upcoming 4.5k Alexa Mini - approx. 50k), a small form factor and high frame rates at high resolutions.


----

I'm on the Red train since 2008 and own a Red Dragon. For exchange I once rented a Helium. I cannot say that this camera gave me an "I want" feeling. This may have been different if I would have shot with a Monstro and proper fitting glas. But fact is that for now all the productions I do (TVC mainly) neither require 4k (at some point they will) nor even would benefit visually this much that using such a camera would give my work a clear edge over the competition. So I will use my Dragon in S35mm 5KHD mode and regular PL-glass for the next 2-3 years without the feeling that my pictures get long in the tooth.

The big question is what's the market going to be in 3 years? I'm sure by then Arri will be more than ever leading cinema and TV. But the other markets? Gonna be interesting!


Hans
 
If Red release a sensor closer to the Gemini, that's much more light sensitive but at Vista Vision size and color science that's more on par with the Alexa, that would keep Red in the business. The Panasonic Varicam with native ISO5000 option is the pure reason that it's getting rented out. All gigs I've been to with the Varicam has been because of the high native ISO option. If Red can't compete in terms of color, then go for high sensitivity with high DR. Being able to shoot a night exterior in practical light situation at 8K with full DR will kick the shit out of any Arri. Unfortunately the LF will probably be the end for Red cameras on many regular productions. I will not be surprised if we see a radical dip in usage other than in the owner operator sector.

And this isn't just a problem for Red. The Sony vista camera is pretty much DOA for the market.
 
For the curious, much of the relevant stuff compared.

RED Weapon 8K VV Monstro 8K FF compared to Arri Alexa LF - Open Gate 4.5K
http://phfx.com/tools/formatCompare/formatCompare.cgi?formatOne_typeTech=RED%7CMonstro +8K+VV&formatOne_format=8K+FF&formatTwo_typeTech=ARRI%7CAlexa+LF&formatTwo_format=Open+Gate+4.5K&focalLengths=

RED Weapon 8K VV Monstro 8K HD compared to Arri Alexa LF - Open Gate 16:9 UHD 4K
[video]http://phfx.com/tools/formatCompare/formatCompare.cgi?formatOne_typeTech=RED%7CMonstro +8K+VV&formatOne_format=8K+HD&formatTwo_typeTech=ARRI%7CAlexa+LF&formatTwo_format=16%3A9+UHD+4K&focalLengths=[/video]

RED Weapon 8K VV Monstro 8K WS compared to Arri Alexa LF - Open Gate 2.39:1 4.5K
http://phfx.com/tools/formatCompare/formatCompare.cgi?formatOne_typeTech=RED%7CMonstro +8K+VV&formatOne_format=8K+WS&formatTwo_typeTech=ARRI%7CAlexa+LF&formatTwo_format=2.39%3A1+4.5K&focalLengths=

Max Frames Per Second at same approximate resolution:
RED 8K VV @ 4.5K FF = 108fps
Alexa LF Open Gate 4.5K w/ ARRIRAW = 90fps (60fps ProRes)

RED 8K VV @ 4K UHD = 120.83fps
Alexa LF 16:9 UHD 4K = 90fps (60fps ProRes)

RED 8K VV @ 4.5K WS = 134.13fps (4K WS is 150fps)
Alexa LF 2.39:1 4.5K = 150fps (100fps ProRes)

While the lens mount is an interesting POV, I suspect that this new concept is not mainly for this camera, but for something down the road. Also note that the Arri Signature Primes are not Arri/Zeiss lenses.

All of this will help with Arri Rental's global efforts as their model is rather different from the Alexa 65 on. This camera was squarely designed to be "just enough" to keep it relevant for 4K acquisition and not hinder the Alexa 65's rental and format comparisons as it's even still important even at 5K to an extent.

It's $98,200 in USD terms and apparently they aren't allowing an upgrade path for SXT and Mini owners.

Interesting focus on ALEVIII sensor technology after all these years.
 
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Christoffer Glans said:
If Red release a sensor closer to the Gemini, that's much more light sensitive but at Vista Vision size and color science that's more on par with the Alexa, that would keep Red in the business. The Panasonic Varicam with native ISO5000 option is the pure reason that it's getting rented out. All gigs I've been to with the Varicam has been because of the high native ISO option. If Red can't compete in terms of color, then go for high sensitivity with high DR. Being able to shoot a night exterior in practical light situation at 8K with full DR will kick the shit out of any Arri. Unfortunately the LF will probably be the end for Red cameras on many regular productions. I will not be surprised if we see a radical dip in usage other than in the owner operator sector.

And this isn't just a problem for Red. The Sony vista camera is pretty much DOA for the market.
Click to expand...

You 100% need to test Monstro 8K VV side by side with any of the above FYI. I haven't published a damn thing regarding Monstro just yet, maybe next week now that PV has dropped some of the DXL2 info, but with the Standard and Low Light OLPF in terms of low light sensitivity, image cleanliness, and noise floor it's a different world these days. Dragon 6K with the Standard and LLO competes squarely with the Varicam at ISO 5000. I'll have to dig up the side by side I did ages ago. It's on REDuser somewhere.

And yeah, if Gemini rears it's head into a new body that would about 1 stop even better I believe over Monstro VV, 2 over Helium. Photons, physics, and sensor design.
 
So let's put aside the comparison between Red and Arri for a sec and discuss glass. This now solidifies large format glass needs. We now have 5 cameras with large format glass needs:\
Red Monstro, Panavision DXL2, Sony Venice, Arri 65, and now Arri 4K

How is the world going to gear up for these lens demands? Should be interesting.
 
I suggest everyone test a Monstro before shouting doom and gloom. It’s truly amazing and it’s one of those things that needs to be experienced. It’s steps beyond Helium IMHO. It’s pricy, but worth the money.
 
Peter Lyons Collister said:
So let's put aside the comparison between Red and Arri for a sec and discuss glass. This now solidifies large format glass needs. We now have 5 cameras with large format glass needs:\
Red Monstro, Panavision DXL2, Sony Venice, Arri 65, and now Arri 4K

How is the world going to gear up for these lens demands? Should be interesting.
Click to expand...

Lots and lots of options nowadays! There's more glass coming, but nearly every manufacturer at this point has a VV or FF35 solution.

It's going to be interesting to see what ends up populating rental houses all over. There will be 2-4 sets I will prefer by the end of the year. i'm shooting with a couple of them already.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
What’s missing now are cinema zooms that cover FF. Will Angenieux starting making an equivalent to their workhorse 11:1 Optimo?
Click to expand...
I thought they already have. don't they make a full frame back swap? Or just a pl to pl extender should do- 1.5x or such...
 
In a sense it almost doesn’t matter what’s better like it hasn’t this last generation.

In the UK with the exception of 4K originated stuff you could count the number of Red productions on one hand. Including my current one which was a slog to persuade people on.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
What’s missing now are cinema zooms that cover FF. Will Angenieux starting making an equivalent to their workhorse 11:1 Optimo?
Click to expand...

I will highly, very highly recommend taking a hard look at the Zeiss CZ (now called Cinema Zooms). 15-30mm, 28-80mm, and 70-200mm all at T2.9. For VV/FF35 the 28-80mm is a midrange workhorse of a lens and is compact.

As for the Angenieux, their 12X solution is the Optimo Ultra 12x 36-435mm T4.2.

If you're curious, most people I know who shoot standard productions thus far on the VV or DXL have been shooting between T4 and T5.6. Just noticed a trend there.
 
Arri vs. RED is also about image, it's not just picture quality, handling, etc... BMW and Mercedes are still beating the living crap out of Lexus and Cadillac, this doesn't mean they are better or worse.

Marketing and image building are powerful tools.
 
Big workhorse cinema zoom, like the big Optimo - but with VV coverage. What might that look like?

For starters, dial the ratio back to 8x vs 12x to control size/weight/speed issues - you know, physics.
Forget about anything faster than T3.5 - same reasons as above
Put zoom and focus motors in the barrel for drive-by-wire operation. (IMO: external FIZ gack is going the way of corded landline phones.)

Notes:

With so many more competitors in the space these days - Canon, Fujinon, Zeiss, Angie, Cooke, Sigma, Tokina, etc - can you really sell enough big zooms for over $50K to make it worth the NRE anymore? I see the market moving to a $15-45K range for "cinema" zooms depending on magnification ratio, speed and performance.

Suggested target:

Size/weight similar to the big Optimo. 8x, T4, 40-320mm, 45mm image circle, internal FIZ, $40K list. Game on.

Cheers - #19
 
That is precisely the next Angie in the EZ series ;-)
 
Phil Holland said:
For the curious, much of the relevant stuff compared.

RED Weapon 8K VV Monstro 8K FF compared to Arri Alexa LF - Open Gate 4.5K
http://phfx.com/tools/formatCompare/formatCompare.cgi?formatOne_typeTech=RED%7CMonstro +8K+VV&formatOne_format=8K+FF&formatTwo_typeTech=ARRI%7CAlexa+LF&formatTwo_format=Open+Gate+4.5K&focalLengths=

RED Weapon 8K VV Monstro 8K HD compared to Arri Alexa LF - Open Gate 16:9 UHD 4K
[video]http://phfx.com/tools/formatCompare/formatCompare.cgi?formatOne_typeTech=RED%7CMonstro +8K+VV&formatOne_format=8K+HD&formatTwo_typeTech=ARRI%7CAlexa+LF&formatTwo_format=16%3A9+UHD+4K&focalLengths=[/video]

RED Weapon 8K VV Monstro 8K WS compared to Arri Alexa LF - Open Gate 2.39:1 4.5K
http://phfx.com/tools/formatCompare/formatCompare.cgi?formatOne_typeTech=RED%7CMonstro +8K+VV&formatOne_format=8K+WS&formatTwo_typeTech=ARRI%7CAlexa+LF&formatTwo_format=2.39%3A1+4.5K&focalLengths=

Max Frames Per Second at same approximate resolution:
RED 8K VV @ 4.5K FF = 108fps
Alexa LF Open Gate 4.5K w/ ARRIRAW = 90fps (60fps ProRes)

RED 8K VV @ 4K UHD = 120.83fps
Alexa LF 16:9 UHD 4K = 90fps (60fps ProRes)

RED 8K VV @ 4.5K WS = 134.13fps (4K WS is 150fps)
Alexa LF 2.39:1 4.5K = 150fps (100fps ProRes)

Interesting focus on ALEVIII sensor technology after all these years.
Click to expand...

I'd say a more relevant comparison would be frame rate at a given sensor size (not res), which kinda nullifies a lot of the differences. Not to mention that the LF can do FF35 FOV at 90fps, whereas Monster can't because it's 1.9:1 sensor... (makes for some substantially bigger ana mode as well.)

As for focusing on ALEVIII; I think the only thing interesting about it is that it's now ~10 years old, but still arguably the best looking motion image available (even though it's paper specs are technically worse). It's definitely the best looking out-of-the-gate cinema camera. RED have had DSMC MX, Dragon, Weapon Dragon, Helium, and now Monstro come out since then (all of which have had growing pains and stumbled out of the gate, by the way), and the industry still chooses ALEVIII at half the resolution... People's pipelines and workflows for ALEVIII are dialled in (and have been for 5 years) whereas RED users are still having to futz with IPP2 and new tweaks/ways of shooting to maximize their cameras that essentially cost the same as Arri's now (back in Epic/Alexa days it was $30k vs $80k; now in the large format days it's like $80k vs $90k).

Honestly the only stumbling here on Arri's part is that the industry obviously prefers the Mini version, so potential owner/op purchasers are either gonna wait for Mini LF, or kinda roll their eyes knowing they'll want to upgrade/sell-swap their LF in 12-18months for the Mini equivalent. Rental houses are gonna eat them up like hotcakes though... And they'll be working continuously until the MiniLF comes out.

Does that mean the pixels are bigger, or is the LF basically 1.6x larger surface area?
 
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