ARRI ALEXA LF - 4k, FullFrame announced

[Phil Holland]

I'd say a more relevant comparison would be

Actually, my biggest relevant comparison has not much to do with RED, but everything to do with motion picture film:
http://phfx.com/tools/formatCompare/formatCompare.cgi?formatOne_typeTech=ARRI%7CAlexa+LF&formatOne_format=Open+Gate+4.5K&formatTwo_typeTech=Kodak%7CFilm&formatTwo_format=VistaVision+8-Perf&focalLengths=

Take note of that resolution disparity. That does bug me, but that's just me "I guess". I'm also providing one answer there, the other is 1.5X that. Which is dead on point of what it should be.

I know we live in the digital age and it perhaps doesn't really matter, but that sort of 3.5-6-ish micron range is rather important to some to maintain some sort of film relevance.

I'll say this, I'm happy that they've stepped up into the real world of "now", but this is also not the most tremendous thing considering the age of the sensor. Yes it produces nice images and all that, but so much more could have been done for $100,000 worth of investment.

I'm a DP with a film background. If you're really curious with Dragon and Monstro I worked 5-6K most of the time for S35 productions. Whole lot of 5.5K in there over the years. Helium, Dragon, and Monstro in 8K S35 and 8K VV forms for the last two years has been mostly 6.5K through 8K. That's been how I've chosen to work. But I'm not everybody for sure and I've also been finishing out to 8K, which isn't exactly common yet.

I'll put one more odd thought in the pot. Arri wanted to release a 4K camera back in 2011, something I was excited about at the time as I worked with film, RED, and Alexa back in that weird limbo point. That never came to fruition because the sensor tech they were exploring wasn't up to snuff. So we've now created an Alexa with the same sensor technology from 2008/2009 that's available in 2018. I understand glass-wise why it wouldn't make much sense, but if this was any sort of intended goal initially it's weird it took so long to get here.

I think this is the tip of the iceberg though, there's another sensor they've been working on for sure. Just don't know where it is at the moment.

 

[M Most]

I'll say this, I'm happy that they've stepped up into the real world of "now", but this is also not the most tremendous thing considering the age of the sensor. Yes it produces nice images and all that, but so much more could have been done for $100,000 worth of investment.

Like what? Isn't "nice images" the goal, particularly when most of the top cinematographers prefer those images already?

 

[Phil Holland]

Like what? Isn't "nice images" the goal, particularly when most of the top cinematographers prefer those images already?

Nice images is indeed the goal. I am a man of two minds at the moment. It's great that Arri are now up to snuff for the 4K capture and delivery realm. I'm just not there anymore and it's been a long while.

Personally this puts more of my favorable thoughts on my investment into the RED ecosystem and as a primary tool to capture. I'm certain I'll be working with the Alexa LF at some point, but for me to purchase one, I'm likely not going to do that.

There will be things that happen from here. Yes they will do a Mini version at some point. Two years ago they were talking about the potential for an upgrade path to SXT and Mini to this new tech, but they seem to have had a change of heart. I do strongly think they will have another sensor in maybe a year or so. I could be wrong though.

Just on a camera side note as I'm having 50 conversations today with lots of people about this camera. Even the DXL is 7lbs lighter weight...... Not to mention a DSMC2 brain being 13-14lbs lighter weight. Which is again why there will be a Mini for sure.

 

[Ahmed Saleem Deen]

I'd like to think there's more to this than just "nice images".

When the perceived (please don't tear me a new one for this) market leader comes out with an "adequate" camera rather than something groundbreaking, the rest of the industry will tend to stagnate around that particular point.
Then what happens to moving forward? Innovation?

It does seem though that they have something up their sleeve for sure. Lets play the waiting game and see what happens.

 

[Brian Boyer]

For years, my ramblings on this subject have gone ignored. I say yet again, Arri wins on two main fronts: color and highlight latitude, with the latter being the main deciding factor.

Doubt me if you will but camera systems with colors that arguably match or surpass Alexa still lose on the highlight front, where the perceived quality of an image is most apparent and initially judged, whether we are aware of it or not.

If ANY camera manufacturer is going to dethrone the Alexa, the highlight queen, they're going to have to outdo the ALEV III on highlight latitude. I feel it's as simple as that, although it's easier said than done. If it were easy, someone would've done it by now.

No amount of digging into shadows with a sensor is going to cut it. We already have cameras that are more sensitive than Alexa. If extreme sensitivity were the deciding factor, that would've dethroned Alexa by now as well. That's a niche feature.

Alexa's popularity is also not due to the other arguments people have given over the years. Although they are pluses, it's not form factor, post workflow, easy-to-use menu, build quality, yada yada yada. Everyone who thought that has already copied all of those things, to no avail.

The one thing no one has managed to do is get more stops up top and it's why they all fall short in the end.

If RED (or anyone else) wants to gain back some market share from Arri, they need to develop a sensor that gets at least 8 stops of undeniable, undisputed latitude above middle gray at an ISO 250 rating. If they have to go dual readout or develop a cheat or whatever, that's what it's going to take.

You can think I'm full of crap on this but the biggest mistake any of them can make is let Arri be the one to beat its own highlight latitude. Then it really will be game over at the high end.

RED has nothing to lose and everything to gain by trying it my way, by whatever means necessary, even if they have to relinquish a few stops on the bottom, and seeing how it goes.

Trust me. I'm intuitive like that.

 

[Peter Lyons Collister ASC]

All good points Brian.

I now have Monstro and I can shoot large format with a camera the exact size of my old Mamiya 645. Arri is working on a whole new camera so we will see what that is. I am more than happy with the results of the Monstro but I have many colleagues who only shoot Alexa or only shoot Sony.
My totally aside question is: What is going to happen to the thousands of rental Alexas out there?

 

[H Dewey]

Is this an old thread?

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

Trust me. I'm intuitive like that.

I agree with you! But Dragon already has a stop over the Alexa. MX is not longer the leading edge, and I think a lot of people are stuck in 2011.

From the near future, "The production wanted 8K, and we discovered that the Alexa LF could scale up to 8K, so we bought the 8K upscale license and it worked really well."

 

[Remington Chase]

Yikes, the value of all existing Alexa's just dropped thru the floor as well as a lot of S35 zooms and primes.

It looks like Fuji is making the new glass. And they will be showing a smaller version at NAB to be avail before end of year.

I was planning on getting a couple of Venice's but now not so sure.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

I still feel that the Arri has a better sensor, the images are more pleasent to look at, more neutral and natural. There are so many odd little things with Red sensors that just don't seem to go away.

That has been taken care of.

If RED (or anyone else) wants to gain back some market share from Arri, they need to develop a sensor that gets at least 8 stops of undeniable, undisputed latitude above middle gray at an ISO 250 rating. If they have to go dual readout or develop a cheat or whatever, that's what it's going to take.

7 would do it.

Cheats won't help in that department. Nor the shrinking pixies.

 

[Mike P.]

Wouldn't be surprised if they're just slow-dripping their next sensor as this point; why rush it out the door when their *~10 year old tech* sensor still looks better than everything else out there? Every minute longer "ALEV4" (and its workflow) spends in the lab being improved/tweaked/tested/solidified, is less time the end-user/dop/production will have to spend tweaking/testing/getting familiar with it... It only bodes well for Arri if their next sensor/product hits the ground at it's zenith rather than half-baked (or even 98% baked, for that matter).

Also agree with Brian; almost ten years later and no one has really been able to match ALEVIII's -7/+7 (or better) latitude. Colour is subjective - and highly malleable when shooting raw - but good, clean, usable stops in the lows and especially highs is quite objective. Even with Dragon's/Helium's ~21 stops, it's highlights still don't appear to retain as well or as "organically" as ALEVIII's... (and did I mention, it's ~10years old?!)

Don't get me wrong; as an owner-op and often one-man-band, I'd still lean towards Monstro (merely because of size/weight)... but it's obvious production/rental houses are going to be all over ALF (probably 10:1 over Monstro). It's everything everyone loves about Alexa, but 4k+ and FF35!!!

 

[Brian Boyer]

7 would do it.

Cheats won't help in that department. Nor the shrinking pixies.

Assuming the camera would behave the way they do now with a 1 stop increase in ISO rating providing a stop better performance in the highlights, 7 would beat Alexa's specs but I said 8 because that would be a definitive step forward. At 7, people might still hedge.

If you're looking to steal market share back, 7.5 or 8 would be the way to go.

Still, a minimum 7 stops at an ISO 250 rating followed by 8 stops at ISO 500 and 9 stops at ISO 1000 would be an attention grabber and a strong selling point.

A sensor capable of 15 stops would still have 6 at the bottom to work with at that point and, if you're trying to hold detail in highlights up around 9 stops over, it's probably bright enough out to fill in shadows such that noise shouldn't be anywhere near an issue.

With Arri still investing in and releasing cameras with their 8+-year-old sensor in clever configurations, it's fairly strong evidence to suggest they're betting no one else has cracked the highlight latitude code.

They're milking that advantage as long as they can. And as long as everyone else is trying to see into shadows because a vocal few don't want to carry/can't carry/don't know how to properly use lights or can't stand to see one speck of noise, they'll keep that advantage.

If only that same outer space client commissioned RED to design a sensor that can more easily photograph the brighter objects in our solar system.

 

[Juan Melara]

Yikes, the value of all existing Alexa's just dropped thru the floor...

So basically what happens to Red cameras every 18 months with Red's current release cycle?

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Assuming the camera would behave the way they do now with a 1 stop increase in ISO rating providing a stop better performance in the highlights,

That's not the camera behaviour.
That is an image exposure/development trend.

One stop more in sensitivity is a stop gained in shadows, not in highlights.

Still, a minimum 7 stops at an ISO 250 rating followed by 8 stops at ISO 500 and 9 stops at ISO 1000 would be an attention grabber and a strong selling point.

Every larger spec number would be a stronger selling point.

Which would last until neighbour got a better lawn and human's grew unappreciative to their own as a result.
Some numbers are realistic, some are not.

7 stops over mid @ 800 is just fine. That is a huge upper range, works nicely for best DoPs in the business and is sufficient for a rich high-contrast scene with minimal scene light distribution/exposure drama.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Only 4K debayer? Do you remember Red ONE days? "It's not real 4K thing...
More DR? Please no they can't handle the DR I give to the post and do always throw the half of it out of the window. (No HDR world here)
More sensitive? I shoot Dragon Weapon LLO at 1600 and don't see any noise, I have to add grain in post.
Shooting 4K means vista vision glass!? No thanks I'm happy with a collection worth a century of nice S35mm glass.

Now RED, JARRED any one out there! Please give us this MONSTRO S35mm cutout for weapon MG!!!
And a one push button for a nice starting point for those colorist used to work only with Arri material.

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

I had a thought: maybe the current/old Alexas, now that they are cheap (they have been for a while now), will be more popular than the LF. Especially for commercial work. Do you really think that people who like the Alexa image, but who also have tighter budgets, are going to spend more for the LF? Do you really think that people doing yoghurt ads are going to bother with the LF? I don't think so.

In any case, Kodak doesn't care either way, as they will be releasing their Super 8 camera this year. The only thing it needs is OIS, but that's for another discussion.

 

[Brian Boyer]

That's not the camera behaviour.
That is an image development trend.

One stop more in sensitivity is a stop gained in shadows, not in highlights.

I don't know what it is with you and I but you always end up countering my arguments based on the exact opposite of what I said. Also, you are quite literal.

First, that image development trend, as it stands, exists in the context of the capture device, the camera, and its corresponding ISO settings. From the user's perspective, it's a behavior of the camera.

If the trend changes, the camera will presumably seem to behave differently, regardless of where or how the actual change is taking place.

So, when I said the camera, you could've just resisted the urge to be contrary and gone with it. But, because you are the way you are, let's say the sensor, before any image development manipulations, can accommodate a full 7.5 stops above middle gray and 7.5 stops below it when rated at the lowest ISO setting, which is usually 250 in-camera for RED.


Second, I didn't say a 1 stop increase in sensitivity. I said a 1 stop increase in ISO rating. I then progressed in 1 stop increments from 250, to 500, to 1000 ISO. What makes you think I was talking about increasing sensitivity in the part of my post you quoted?

Every larger spec number would be a stronger selling point.

And would last until neighbour got a better lawn and human's grew unappreciative to their own as a result.
Some numbers are realistic, some are not.

7 stops over mid @ 800 is just fine. That is a huge upper range, works nicely for best DoPs in the business and is sufficient for a rich high-contrast scene with minimal scene light distribution/exposure drama.

I never said 7 stops over wasn't good. My point is any company that releases a camera in hopes of unseating the Alexa or at least giving it a serious run for its money is going to have to beat it in the one area where it reigns supreme. That's overexposure latitude.

9 stops over mid is film territory for some stocks and what we've already gotten used to seeing and shooting for several decades.

If RED's argument that 2K wasn't a good enough resolution for a film replacement, especially given film's ability to resolve at least 4K worth of resolution when scanned, then neither should only 7 stops above mid gray be good enough. 9 stops, by their own logic.

 

[Marc Wielage]

I just watched the Panavision videos on the new DXL2 and the footage looks great. I never understood why RED just doesn't hire the best colorists in the world to come up with a way to develop profiles for their cameras that look the most 'pleasing' vs what's the most 'accurate'.

I believve Ian Vertovec over at Light Iron was extensively involved in working out the color management for the new Panavision cameras, and judging by the demos, the DXL's look fantastic.

Some interesting commentary on the new Alexa camera at these links:

ARRI Unveils Large-Format 4K Alexa Camera, Solves Netflix Spec Dilemma
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/b...xa-camera-solves-netflix-spec-dilemma-1081131

New ARRI ALEXA LF camera embraces 4k at last!
https://www.redsharknews.com/production/item/5254-new-arri-alexa-lf-camera-embraces-4k-at-last

ARRI Alexa Goes Native 4K with New Large-Format Camera
http://www.studiodaily.com/2018/02/arri-alexa-goes-native-4k-new-large-format-camera/

 

[Mike P.]

I believve Ian Vertovec over at Light Iron was extensively involved in working out the color management for the new Panavision cameras, and judging by the demos, the DXL's look fantastic.

Off topic: Did the DXL1 even make it out the door? (Other than demos/tests, did any actual productions get shot on it?) I presume DXL2 is basically exactly the same just with Monstro, right?

On topic: Does the ALF have a "open gate 16:9" mode? (as in, 4448x2502?) If not, why not?

 

[Arthur Love]

Still hoping they eventually come out with Alev4 sensor. I love the size of Alexa Open Gate as it really works well with so many existing lens options. This new camera doesn’t really add much for Anamorphic productions but if they came out with their 6k sensor and it was the same size as the Alev3, we’d be looking at Anamorphic 4.5k pixels across. And of course 6k spherical.