Any Truth To This: Red + Foxconn = Low Cost Professional Cameras For The Masses ??

[Zeb B]

Sure.
When people stop replacing my words with what they've interpreted and debating me over the latter, I look forward to stop using the term referring to that error in logic.

On the Netflix exchange, I think what was being said is that you had no idea of what you were talking about - which is a direct response to what you said. No straw there Mate ;-)

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Interesting. Guess I was thinking more of what Clark and Phil have been doing over the last couple years with collecting 8K footie for Stock etc

BINGO.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

It isn't left to the production because the production isn't going to own the resulting asset in perpetuity. Netflix is. Their decision is based not just on current displays, current audience, current methods of delivery, and ultimately current value, but on other things known and unknown. As the entity that owns it, they are entitled to fulfill their anticipated needs, within reason. And yes, when it's their money, they ARE above all.

I understand what their decisions are based on and yes if someone funds the project and makes sure it brings profit they get to bring some rules to the table on which their business principles depend on.
Value itself is relative to criteria though. And those vary. The question here is not whether some entity has the power to enforce own criteria but whether those criteria should be used as a reference for all.

Is Netflix above all in the WHOLE production reality ?

If it is, no one in the production chain of the films we finished and co-produced, shot on Alexa, ending up on the big screen(s), got the memo so cared squat for what the Netflix says or wants, so you may understand the difference in perspectives.

If you have a project that you're making for Netflix, with Netflix's backing and Netflix as the ultimate owner, you can talk to them about specific needs and using "non-approved" tools for specific scenes and specific reasons.

Yet there is a widely pushed "4K+ or bust" mantra which does not affect group think or tool choice whatsoever.

As I said before, I sense that you have never really dealt with them, and yet you're coming on here calling them ignorant and somehow against creativity.

That is an accurate sensation, and interestingly ignoring the previously mentioned points.
No anger or fear here, though, you attribute emotions to words which are not there. I do however notice the ever occuring defence-mechanism drama on the forum whenever a new camera or image acquisition technology is announced, this thread and Alexa FF thread being the recent examples.

I don't generalize and use prejudice to form conclusions, and the statements you commented are referring to mentality manifested in the mentioned examples. If that mentality isn't present and dominant, statement taken out of context is useless.
I will gladly re-consider if faced with premises which point otherwise. Coming from you especially, but I still don't see the premises pointing otherwise while I do see "4K+ or bust" mentality, inertia in uniforming of visual aesthetic, dictating the usage of creative tools and promoting dismissive attitude towards valid ones.

While we live in technologically advanced environment which enables the widest toolset ever, the ideology seems to exist and expand which enforces its narrowing. With that in mind, for someone being on a content-generation side of media chain, the reaction is not an unreasonable one.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

On the Netflix exchange, I think what was being said is that you had no idea of what you were talking about - which is a direct response to what you said. No straw there Mate ;-)

Strawman is bolded in the quote to which it refers, but I see why focusing on that other thing may cause a pleasant sensation.
I don't have a problem with facing and working on my ignorance.

 

[Zeb B]

Strawman is bolded in the quote to which it refers, but I see why focusing on that other thing may cause a pleasant sensation.
I don't have a problem with facing and working on my ignorance.

You do love to argue . . . does it ever satisfy?

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

You do love to argue . . . does it ever satisfy?

It mostly frustrates and wastes time which could have been used on more productive things but unresolved stuff left on a public place has a life of its own and is destructive to Reason so one learns to ignore the initial sensation in order to clean the mess.

People greatly underestimate the importance of mental hygiene, which is one of the main reasons we live in this neurotic self-destructive society. And that stays until critical mass finally learns to clean the crap and control the bowels. In mental domain.

 

[Jim Skinner]

Maybe we won’t even get to choose our own glass in the future

Maybe we won’t even get to choose our own glass in the future

@Hrvoje
Still would like to know how specifically RED will feature limit in a way that protects their high-end while revolutionizing the industry as a whole. Has this ever been tried before? LOL

I’m not a fan of this kind of trolling, but there is such an obvious answer here I had to speak up. The one thing that all the existing Red workflows have in common is PL glass (with the exception of the Raven). Red could easily drop the PL mount, drop the price, and there would still be a market for the old models. This is exactly what they did with the Raven.

Now let’s take it a step further. If you are trying to reduce the overall size of the camera, why would you even keep the EF Mount? Couldn’t you revolutionize low end video production with a new mount, glass to go with it, and STILL keep the folks with PL glass coming back for more $80K cameras? The answer is yes, yes we would all continue to pay $80K per body if that mount did not exist on the smaller, cheaper, revolutionary camera.

Now let’s go even one step further. Why even allow the small camera to have a detachable lens? You can reduce size, get customers on a planned obsolescence treadmill, and even more clearly separate the cheaper camera from the existing Red line.

The key point here is that cinema camera manufacturers earn $0 in revenue from your glass purchases. Do you think that has gone unnoticed? Having a system that allows total flexibility in terms of lens selection is extremely valuable to you, the DP. Not to Red. When Red starts making phones why in the world would they carry over that cinema notion to their consumer products? They won’t. Some version of “you don’t get to use your PL glass” will end up in the product, protecting the existing product line.

 

[Zeb B]

I’m not a fan of this kind of trolling, but there is such an obvious answer here I had to speak up. The one thing that all the existing Red workflows have in common is PL glass (with the exception of the Raven). Red could easily drop the PL mount, drop the price, and there would still be a market for the old models. This is exactly what they did with the Raven.

Now let’s take it a step further. If you are trying to reduce the overall size of the camera, why would you even keep the EF Mount? Couldn’t you revolutionize low end video production with a new mount, glass to go with it, and STILL keep the folks with PL glass coming back for more $80K cameras? The answer is yes, yes we would all continue to pay $80K per body if that mount did not exist on the smaller, cheaper, revolutionary camera.

Now let’s go even one step further. Why even allow the small camera to have a detachable lens? You can reduce size, get customers on a planned obsolescence treadmill, and even more clearly separate the cheaper camera from the existing Red line.

The key point here is that cinema camera manufacturers earn $0 in revenue from your glass purchases. Do you think that has gone unnoticed? Having a system that allows total flexibility in terms of lens selection is extremely valuable to you, the DP. Not to Red. When Red starts making phones why in the world would they carry over that cinema notion to their consumer products? They won’t. Some version of “you don’t get to use your PL glass” will end up in the product, protecting the existing product line.

?? "trolling" da heck you talkin aboot there Mate?

RED workflows = PL mount? Guess I gotta get rid of my EF, Leica and Nikon mounts to get that RED workflow flowing ;-)

 

[Zeb B]

It mostly frustrates and wastes time which could have been used on more productive things but unresolved stuff left on a public place has a life of its own and is destructive to Reason so one learns to ignore the initial sensation in order to clean the mess.

People greatly underestimate the importance of mental hygiene, which is one of the main reasons we live in this neurotic self-destructive society. And that stays until critical mass finally learns to clean the crap and control the bowels. In mental domain.

Would you like fresh ground pepper with that word salad?

 

[Phil Holland]

Interesting. Guess I was thinking more of what Clark and Phil have been doing over the last couple years with collecting 8K footie for Stock etc

Nothing against Clark's model as stock is an entire industry, but.....

I've never shot stock in my life. Got a whole damn thing about that. Won't ever either.

 

[Zeb B]

Nothing against Clark's model as stock is an entire industry, but.....

I've never shot stock in my life. Got a whole damn thing about that. Won't ever either.

Heard you were shooting stuff for Apple etc for screen savers or something like that. Totally 3rd hand rumor stuff. Also saw several 8K projects over the last couple years that didn't seem to have a client stated. Thought you were just getting a head start on the 8K world of tradeshow graphics and general content for display manufacturers etc like Clark was. Bunch of assumptions then. My bad

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Please let us know where that line to the "high-end segment" begins:

1. Raven
2. Scarlet
3. Dragon
4. Epic-W
5. Weapon Dragon
6. Weapon Helium
7. Weapon VV
8: Panavision DXL

Not trying to be cute but I think that it's going to be impossible to be a true market disrupter and while maintaining the status quo with the DSMC concept going forward. Hard choices are going have to be made, like Apple made to become a mass market company instead continuing with a very narrow piece of the pie. Whatever happens with this inflection point in RED's path, I just hope they continue to support through firmware updates their existing product line that was purchased on faith.

1.Raven

The Chinese supermarket's berwvere I lived knew how to do it. They would charge a price the competition couldn't afford to start up at, and they presumably relief on volumetric name profit.

I hear a lot of people talking, who don't know things related to this.

As long as you charge more for less in done markets, you are vunerable to competition. The competition merely has to give more for less instead of take more for less. This is how Red started and got market penertration.

8k is kids stuff. $1000 stuff. $2000 raw. $3000+ quality. This is what we are heading towards. All they need toroid redefine the high end and offer more at those old prices, and bring in more at the low end to undercut the overchargers. The over chargers want to charge more for low end products, and a lot more for high end products. Si, what Red may pjab fur $60k they may want to charge $240k. What Red may wants to sell for $6k they may want to sell for $10k-$20k, and what Red may want to sell for $2k they want to sell for $10k-$20k, and pocket as much of the difference as they can. Except they can't if Red dies this, and those companies are top heavy, with profitable lines also propping up losses elsewhere. There bloat probably costs them multiple of Red's costs, but maybe they are onto that largely.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Blow it, I missed a few quotes.

Imma thinking Eric has a balanced view of things

Yes, he can Zeb.

There ya go, Zeb:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

People used to do that to me nearly ALL THE TIME HERE, it used to drive me NUTS, the little TROLLS. Lol! Thankfully I missed this conversation. :biggrin:

I went several times to the Paul Allen "Start Up" exhibit*, and at the end it says something like "If you want to predict the future then be the one that makes the future..." ...

I say if you want to predict the future then pick the most ironic outcome that you can possibly think off.

I believe (I'm not in the loop) that originally that some if not a lot of the RED sensors are made in Taiwan and possibly by said semiconductor factory formerly owned by Sharp and now having been acquired by Foxconn (in 2016). A lot of the front end ASIC processors and other bits and pieces are made by Foxconn that go into RED cameras.

Taiwan obviously is very different from PRC, but politically from the Chinese perspective Taiwan is "China" but going against that idea seems to trigger the high priority directive to acquire Taiwan (eventually). Taiwan does great things.

I'm impressed as hell that Jim Jannard and Jarred Land and Team RED were able to make Terry Gou and Foxconn an offer and a deal (if that's true?????), that was more attractive than what's going down with Apple these days (it seems). The RED name and Chinese New Year all seem very auspicious. Also I think there is certain amount of prestige for working with RED. Chinese production companies are an increasingly important component of international collaborative movie projects "Ghost in the Sell 2017" comes to mind.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

*Paul Allen took the Start Up exhibit lock stock and barrel out of its Albuquerque New Mexico (Natural History Museum location). I guess he thought those tumble weed chasing atom smashing breaking badders didn't deserve it anymore... It's a really great exhibit for the history of personal computing wherever it is now (I'm guessing somewhere in Seattle lol/not far from Space Needle?).

I'm pretty convinced it is based on Aptina technology among others. I forget the name of who bought Aptina, but they bought the Kodak sensor and cypress (who I think had the smalmicro sensor business that has that HDR/UDR sensor technology I sometimes mention, which makes for some super BM pocket like frames with HDR. I think lso fill factory). Would be interesting to find out who their shareholders are, and shareholders of the chain of holding companies, to see where that ends up.

They have mentioned having two of their own ovens. So, if the above company operates out of the US, I imagine they are there, but if oversease they could even end up in the same plant. It could be that Red could use Sharps old lines to make cheap sensors. But the issue is that formulation that brings sensors advanced characteristics can = equipment. So another location might have to be refitted at tremendous cost to reproduce the same sensor formular. This means very high runs to pay for, which just might indicate selling sensors to the mass market.

You will notice how I have commented over the years about the commonality of the look of the Red image since second or third sensor generation with the Sony image. But there is also commonality with Aptina images (see BM microstudio images, and the older Sony rx100's with similar Aptina chip). See, after the law suites went, there was a cross licensing deal between Aptina and Sony, making Aptina hotter property.

You do love to argue . . . does it ever satisfy?

Lol! You have only JUST noticed that Zeb?

I’m not a fan of this kind of trolling, but there is such an obvious answer here I had to speak up. The one thing that all the existing Red workflows have in common is PL glass (with the exception of the Raven). Red could easily drop the PL mount, drop the price, and there would still be a market for the old models. This is exactly what they did with the Raven.

Now let’s take it a step further. If you are trying to reduce the overall size of the camera, why would you even keep the EF Mount? Couldn’t you revolutionize low end video production with a new mount, glass to go with it, and STILL keep the folks with PL glass coming back for more $80K cameras? The answer is yes, yes we would all continue to pay $80K per body if that mount did not exist on the smaller, cheaper, revolutionary camera.

Now let’s go even one step further. Why even allow the small camera to have a detachable lens? You can reduce size, get customers on a planned obsolescence treadmill, and even more clearly separate the cheaper camera from the existing Red line.

The key point here is that cinema camera manufacturers earn $0 in revenue from your glass purchases. Do you think that has gone unnoticed? Having a system that allows total flexibility in terms of lens selection is extremely valuable to you, the DP. Not to Red. When Red starts making phones why in the world would they carry over that cinema notion to their consumer products? They won’t. Some version of “you don’t get to use your PL glass” will end up in the product, protecting the existing product line.

Jim, is that you?

 

[Wayne Morellini]

So what. The Article is not the official RED word and could be complete bullshit. I do know that RED has been trying to make a mass market camera since before Epic. Remember Scarlet 1.0? That fixed lens 2/3 sensor amazing cam . . . that was derailed by the 5DII? Now RED finally has the engineering / production means with Foxconn to bring 8K$8K to market. My point is, if they succeed in doing that, it will obsolete the current middle market cameras and drop the premium that can be charged for 8K footage from oversupply. That’s all

I think maybe because it was so terrible in low light against Canon's original digital cinema camera of the time. But allegedly because the 20x zoom lens wasn't right. I would not have minded if they made it a little longer to get it right. But there you go. It should have been 4k anyway, even if M4/3rds.

What $ Premium for 8K footage ?

“No one” wants 8K right now.

My Monstro hasn’t rented once (except when I want to use it on a job.)

Naturally this will change - but there is ZERO rental advantage today in Los Angeles to have a Helium or Monstro over any other camera that I’m able to Perceive of at all.

Period.

Now, things change, they can, will and Do change.

Right now in my (little) world there’s very little (factually near zero as of today) economic advantage to owning as an operator or renting out as an individual any of the 8K camera options.

If you’re a good camera person you’ll get called to shoot something. Otherwise it’s a world of lowest common cost for an owner operator to flop around at the behest of someone who knows even less about the factualities of the world as it used to exist or currently does.

The reality is, this is a very early shot off the Bow, and may be a potential direct hit to the starboard side of other dominant, primarily Japanese based camera Manufacturers. Really depends though. These are just smoke signals of impending product cycle collapse and expansion.

Exactly right Dan, I was going to bring it up. Why mention this at all. Ussually you will not mention until the deal is done, or maybe final stages. This is like a smoke signal to someone.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Would you like fresh ground pepper with that word salad?

Sprinkled with a touch of troll.

Let's see how long the provoking urge will last.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

 

[Martin Weiss]

Ehem. Time to behave like grown ups again.

Thanks.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

But there are so many great images in that troll search, and such fun watching these guys.

But why when I put in troll barbeque in quotes it keeps coming up with images of Hillary Clinton, and it a single cartoon image of somebody else? And without quotes Thor cartoons keep coming up.

A pity, I was looking forwards to my troll joke where I ask why it's returning these images, and put up an image of Hillary up, along side the Thir cartoon, and after put the Chris Hemsworth one asking if Hilary got a change and went back in time to become Chris Hemsworth!

Phil's been here.

 

[Jim Skinner]

Hey Wayne, it is me. Come by Twitter some time!

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Sorry Jim. I was joking that you could be Big Jim, lurking around with us. I have poblems with names, but the name Skinner sounds familiar, do I know you Jim?

I was going to take down those cartoons soon anyway. Doesn't seem Zeb and Hvroje have much of a sense of humour.