Any Truth To This: Red + Foxconn = Low Cost Professional Cameras For The Masses ??

[David Hessel]

So RED is teaming up with a manufacturer that has working conditions so terrible they installed nets to keep workers from killing themselves jumping out the factory windows... Enjoy your new low cost camera.

 

[Bob Gundu]

So RED is teaming up with a manufacturer that has working conditions so terrible they installed nets to keep workers from killing themselves jumping out the factory windows... Enjoy your new low cost camera.

Could be why Foxconn is moving away from the pressure of cellphone production.

 

[David Hessel]

They don't need to move away from anything, just not treat they employees like slave labor.

 

[Phil Holland]

They don't need to move away from anything, just not treat they employees like slave labor.

Friendly moderator warning as this can stray rapidly, but to the point made. A lot has transpired since the 2010 incident/protest and while there's been a few other incidents up until 2016, Foxconn has taken steps to improve a great deal of things.

To that note, bare in mind that Foxconn is a $135B (current revenue) a year company and the largest contract based electronics manufacturer by a fair margin. You would likely need to get rid of perhaps 60-80% of anything you own that has a processor or board in it. The ecosystem within the Technology Park is close to half a million employees many of whom also live there. It's an entire world in that city that is difficult to comprehend in scale and scope.

Suicide is a touchy subject that's best left off forum overall, but for perspective in California depending on region averages 8-20 suicides per 100,000 individuals every year.


Anyways, looooong story short. Foxconn makes things for a lot, and I mean A LOT, of companies.

The bigger news is RED potentially announcing some of their intentions on this front well in advance. For those who own any of the higher resolution digital cinema cameras, this honestly isn't really a shocker. But it does showcase that one day 8K motion pictures might be as easy to shoot as perhaps HD and 4K is today.

 

[David Hessel]

True, but does that make it Ok? Why the warning? I didn't post any profanity? Is anything I posted not factual? I mean seriously they installed nets to keep employees from jumping to their doom from the windows. Isn't that alone enough to say I'll pass?

 

[Björn Benckert]

True, but does that make it Ok? Why the warning? I didn't post any profanity? Is anything I posted not factual? I mean seriously they installed nets to keep employees from jumping to their doom from the windows. Isn't that alone enough to say I'll pass?

In sweden goverment have nets or protective fences so we dont jump on every high brige. Also very likly we will get protective walls in the subway stations so people dont jump infront of the trains.

So make sure you dont buy anyting comming from Sweden...

 

[Antony Newman]

This is great news.

We want RED brains to be able to do more (HFR) with less power.
This will entail shrinking the transistor sizes, and doing more compute on custom ASICs / FPGA.

The next node to jump to (foundry) 7nm - could well double the performance capability of the brain (or halve its power requirements).
But the big roadblock is cost.

A $30 Million Integrated Circuit designed on the 28nm node costs ~$300 Million at 7nm.

If RED could spread the costs over 50x more cameras, at a time when there Asian prosumer market is scaling up (China?), and leverage Foxconn’s expertise - they could well justify investing in the next Brian shrink that would benefit the professional end of the market.

2021 - DSMC3 ?

AJ

 

[David Hessel]

In sweden goverment have nets or protective fences so we dont jump on every high brige. Also very likly we will get protective walls in the subway stations so people dont jump infront of the trains.

So make sure you dont buy anyting comming from Sweden...

If Sweden is the same as foxconn I won't.

 

[Zeb B]

Likelihood that Red would undercut its own high-end segment = zero.

Please let us know where that line to the "high-end segment" begins:

1. Raven
2. Scarlet
3. Dragon
4. Epic-W
5. Weapon Dragon
6. Weapon Helium
7. Weapon VV
8: Panavision DXL

Not trying to be cute but I think that it's going to be impossible to be a true market disrupter and while maintaining the status quo with the DSMC concept going forward. Hard choices are going have to be made, like Apple made to become a mass market company instead continuing with a very narrow piece of the pie. Whatever happens with this inflection point in RED's path, I just hope they continue to support through firmware updates their existing product line that was purchased on faith.

 

[Phil Holland]

Please let us know where that line to the "high-end segment" begins:

I'll play the contrarian to the point you're making and state that what is more interesting is that all of those cameras can be used in a professional capacity and many benefit from tech that crosses pricing tiers.

Obviously in the current line-up Weapon class bodies are "top of the line". And that is eluded to in their specifications, features, and price points in the RED ecosystem.

That said, Scarlet up is all capable of being used in typical production scenarios. Raven too, but a bit more limited by lack of PL mount compatibility.

But back to my contrarian point, all can be used in a professional capacity to provide high quality images. They are all just different tiers, format sizes, resolutions, etc...


To the indirect object in Hrvoje's post, anything 8K that RED is making now or more accurately by the time this new prosumer mindeed gear hits the market is likely what would be considered high end.

 

[David J. Buchanan]

Please let us know where that line to the "high-end segment" begins:

1. Raven
2. Scarlet
3. Dragon
4. Epic-W
5. Weapon Dragon
6. Weapon Helium
7. Weapon VV
8: Panavision DXL

Not trying to be cute but I think that it's going to be impossible to be a true market disrupter and while maintaining the status quo with the DSMC concept going forward. Hard choices are going have to be made, like Apple made to become a mass market company instead continuing with a very narrow piece of the pie. Whatever happens with this inflection point in RED's path, I just hope they continue to support through firmware updates their existing product line that was purchased on faith.

Agreed.

How are they not undercutting themselves? Remember Sony did the same thing to themselves... Granted some would say their cinema line wasn't doing well in the first place but when they released the FS7, not only did it kill the game, including there own, it went up in value. So why should I buy a Sony PMW-F5 over a FS7? C'mon ppl.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

It's just like anything. Once a company hits a breakeven point on sales, they can drop their prices and start selling to a broader audience. DJI seems to do this about every 3-6 months on every new product release. Drives me a little nuts. But the speed of technology is getting increasingly faster, not slower.

The nice thing about RED cams is, no matter which flavor you can afford to own, you'll be able to make pretty pictures, which never goes out of style....

 

[Bob Gundu]

This going to be amazing. I see this as RED continuing being leaders in hi resolution sensors in small bodies. We know DJI is going that route too having bought Hasselblad. REDs will be the unquestionable choice for stabilized gimbals, drones.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Please let us know where that line to the "high-end segment" begins:

1. Raven
2. Scarlet
3. Dragon
4. Epic-W
5. Weapon Dragon
6. Weapon Helium
7. Weapon VV
8: Panavision DXL

Make that higher end segment.
High end for RED starts with Epic. Raven and Scarlet are higher mid-segment. While all of them are capable of high quality cinematic imagery, feature set and pricing segment defines target market segment.

Not trying to be cute but I think that it's going to be impossible to be a true market disrupter and while maintaining the status quo with the DSMC concept going forward.

"Market disruption" sounds cool for marketing but is not necessary for success if one creates a new product category.

It is possible if RED brings a new product category with unique features targeting a different market segment which does not compete with professional production cameras.

And Hydrogen ultra compact multifunctional modular platform allows just that. And that pricing segment entails large production capacity requirements.

Whatever happens with this inflection point in RED's path, I just hope they continue to support through firmware updates their existing product line that was purchased on faith.

I'd say there is no need to worry about that.

 

[Zeb B]

Make that higher end segment.
High end for RED starts with Epic. Raven and Scarlet are higher mid-segment. While all of them are capable of high quality cinematic imagery, feature set and pricing segment defines target market segment.

"Market disruption" sounds cool for marketing but is not necessary for success if one creates a new product category.

It is possible if RED brings a new product category with unique features targeting a different market segment which does not compete with professional production cameras.

And Hydrogen ultra compact multifunctional modular platform allows just that. And that pricing segment entails large production capacity requirements.

I'd say there is no need to worry about that.

RED will do what they do. It's their game and their rules. The world will go on whatever the new camera is.

My point in this response is with your specific statements, which come off like insider informed pronouncements, but relies on some iffy business logic and probably with no more base knowledge as to RED's Roadmap that the rest of us have. Walk me through a couple things.

1. You state the protected higher-end existing models start with Epic-W. OK, not sure the owner of a new $20K Scarlet-W system would agree with that, but let's move on. What will the Epic-W be able to do that the coming 8K Prosumer camera can not do? Specifically how can a new camera be feature limited to protect existing products - yet disruptive at the same time?
2. You state "RED brings a new product category with unique features targeting a different market segment which does not compete with professional production cameras." Please explain how an 8K camera which is . . .
A. Cheaper
B. Lighter
C. Smaller
D. Faster (the post production of files has to be quick to upload to Social Media etc so I don't see the existing RCX / RAW process being used for a mass market)
. . . is not going to directly compete with the existing RED product line. Especially the Epic-W space.

I understand you are a strong supporter of RED and will defend and rally behind anything they do, but making statements like "feature set and pricing segment defines target market segment" are a bit lacking in economic reality. If you release a sub $5K RED camera, that shoots 8K with competitive image quality it will disrupt the existing market. That is, the existing RED shooters market.

There is no 8K market or content generators other than existing RED owners. This will not take market share from Canon, Arri, BMD Owner / Content Generators. It will reduce the cost of shooting RED 8K by a factor of 3+. So the cost of shooting RED 8K comes down dramatically, which is not a boon for existing RED shooters. It will grow RED's market share - but not their existing users revenue since there will be an influx of cheap 8K footage flooding the market. Basic economics here like what happened to the 4K aerial footage market after cheap drones where introduced.

In future retrospect, one could see this as the FCP7 v FCPX inflection point in RED's history. Didn't hurt Apple to open up there product offerings to a mass market. Or when BMD gave away DaVinci. There's still plenty of top tier talent making a fat paycheck doing Color. Right?

All this being said, it's not the gear that makes creative success. But we have enjoyed the economic premium which the statement "Shot on RED" has paid us.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

One more use case for 5G

One more use case for 5G

It's worth noting that in several verticals the dominant manufacturer simply creates multiple brands for key market segments so they end up essentially competing with themselves.

Back to what RED and Foxconn may or may not do, I do think there is a market for a small "walk around" camera with serious IQ. Keep the price low enough for enthusiasts who don't offset the costs through professional gigs. Make it small and power efficient enough to facilitate taking it everywhere you go. Perhaps the HydrogenOne will be the core piece of such a device, or perhaps it will be a stand alone, or even better - both (but with greater capabilities like storage space and frame rates when mated).

As Zeb notes, for any camera system to achieve significant uptake in the broader market, it needs a fast and simple way to get seen. I have to wonder if there is an opportunity to use cloud rendering via AWS to allow uploading of RedCode files that are then processed (either using nominal values or supplied metadata) and distributed in HEVC/VP9/etc. Thanks to the way RedCode works (JP2K entropy encoding) it could potentially support multiple resolutions with commensurate latency. Even with 7nm dies, creating 8K content (likely at 60fps or higher) with decent IQ from RAW Bayer data would require processing muscle antithetical to the ideal form factor. So, IF there's a way that heavy lifting could be done remotely...

Cheers - #19

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

My point in this response is with your specific statements, which come off like insider informed pronouncements, but relies on some iffy business logic and probably with no more base knowledge as to RED's Roadmap that the rest of us have.

No insider knowledge.
Sorry if my logic seems iffy.

Walk me through a couple things.

1. You state the protected higher-end existing models start with Epic-W. OK, not sure the owner of a new $20K Scarlet-W system would agree with that, but let's move on.

Instead of seeeking Scarlet owner agreement for basis for market segmentation I would suggest to ask rental companies and higher-end project producers.

What will the Epic-W be able to do that the coming 8K Prosumer camera can not do?

Cater professional productions requiring functionality of a cinema style camera.

Specifically how can a new camera be feature limited to protect existing products - yet disruptive at the same time?

Prosumer and professional cameras typically differ in image, physiognomy, functionality and workflow parameters.

2. You state "RED brings a new product category with unique features targeting a different market segment which does not compete with professional production cameras." Please explain how an 8K camera which is . . .
A. Cheaper
B. Lighter
C. Smaller
D. Faster (the post production of files has to be quick to upload to Social Media etc so I don't see the existing RCX / RAW process being used for a mass market)
. . . is not going to directly compete with the existing RED product line. Especially the Epic-W space.

No need to explain.

My pocket snitch which looks like a phone shoots 4K and is:

A. Cheaper
B. Lighter
C. Smaller
D. Faster

And I still use proper camera(s).

I understand you are a strong supporter of RED and will defend and rally behind anything they do, but making statements like "feature set and pricing segment defines target market segment" are a bit lacking in economic reality.

Not really.

Fixating on "K's" and generalizing markets based on one image parameter is.

The difference between a supporter and a fanatic is in the presence of Reason.

If you release a sub $5K RED camera, that shoots 8K with competitive image quality it will disrupt the existing market. That is, the existing RED shooters market.

Not sure where you got the "competitive image quality" and camera feature set from to push this line of thought.

There is no 8K market or content generators other than existing RED owners. This will not take market share from Canon, Arri, BMD Owner / Content Generators. It will reduce the cost of shooting RED 8K by a factor of 3+. So the cost of shooting RED 8K comes down dramatically, which is not a boon for existing RED shooters. It will grow RED's market share - but not their existing users revenue since there will be an influx of cheap 8K footage flooding the market.

So what.

We are living in a multimedia hungry civilization. And 8K delivery platforms will require content.

There is an influx of cheap 4K footage from consumer camcorders and stills cameras and professional production cameras still exist and are not leaving any time soon.

In future retrospect, one could see this as the FCP7 v FCPX inflection point in RED's history.

Apple got taken over by ethically-retarded poser trolls with chronic fixation on numbers and irrational growth of own insatiable gut. Based on planned and enforced obsolescence.

Red guys have spent nights on forums and designed upgrade options.

So that comparison attempt is a miss.

 

[Zeb B]

It's worth noting that in several verticals the dominant manufacturer simply creates multiple brands for key market segments so they end up essentially competing with themselves.

Ha! Yup, this is why I only own Makita, Hilti and Matabo tools in my shop

 

[Zeb B]

@Hrvoje
Arguing with your vague generalities will put me in the position of being anti-RED. Not my point. RED will do what's best for RED and we will all make our personal decisions about how to proceed.

Still would like to know how specifically RED will feature limit in a way that protects their high-end while revolutionizing the industry as a whole. Has this ever been tried before? LOL

If you are a true revolutionary then you don't give a fuq about incumbencies or existing hierarchies of dominance. You burn those to the ground since, in a revolution, it's a zero sum game

 

[Eric Lange]

analogs to other industries

analogs to other industries

Much depends on intended business models how all the pieces fit.

A lot of companies that aim to scale up seek to own the base of the pyramid (in some cases) i.e. low cost but numerous/ high volume distribution AND at the same time maintain their higher end offerings as being separate and discrete. AND at the same time the lower end offerings (which can indeed make a company way more $) can serve as a "Gate-way drug" to their higher end capabilities. At the same time the lower end more numerous product offering generate really good capital that can be plowed into R&D to help also develop the highest end and most expensive offerings. Typically in such a scenario over the years the higher end tech will be de-accessioned and offered in a separate lower tier/separate bracket. Competition with other companies makes that necessary or so.


So the high end and low end offerings and markets serve to prop each other up.


I probably follow the machine tool industry closer from time to time than almost anything else.

Specific example is Okuma in Japan, that make really high end machining systems and platforms that are typically used in very high end DOD and Aerospace type environments... So their really high end, amazingly well built and capable machines are made in Japan and they fetch a premium price many hundreds of thousands of dollars to millions. However they don't sell quite so many of those machines as they do of their very slightly down-graded machines their "Affordable Excellence" "Collection" that are partially made in Taiwan (large precision castings) and then those components are shipped to Japan for final assembly and testing. Those machines sell like hot-cakes and go like gang busters, but it was important for Okuma to eventually devise a bridge between their "Affordable Excellence" products and their very high end offerings. If you don't offer that bridge then you do keep users trapped in a lower tiered environment where they will be more tempted to switch brands
(as there may not be anything in the product range that fullfills a "Gap" in a given price/performance ratio).

By analogy the idea is to give more general users a "Taste" of RED and what it can deliver and do for them. And if they are successful they can aspire to do almost anything.
At the same time the whole social media and RED channel and other "portals" offer access and exposure in ways that are still hard to fathom as to what their full potential will be especially given that whole new generations are not watching TV anymore and watch all their "Content" on YouTube.

My own view is what's going to be happening 15 years from now as that's where business and technology needs to be throwing that ball to IMO. And the possible (yet not fully substantiated) "Report" of what's next for RED and Foxconn and other partners not yet announced probably has a much longer intended and planned arc of the order of 15 to 20 years (at least on paper).