Any Truth To This: Red + Foxconn = Low Cost Professional Cameras For The Masses ??

[Bill Sepaniak]

Maybe .... at least according to this article published today in "Nikkei Asian Review:"


"We will make cameras that will shoot professional-quality films in 8K resolution but at only a third of current prices and a third of current camera sizes," Foxconn Chairman Terry Gou told reporters in Taipei following the company's annual employee party before the Chinese New Year. 8K ultra-high definition resolution has become the benchmark standard for digital television and cinematography.

Gou said he is in talks with RED Digital Cinema, whose cameras are used in the filming of such hit films and TV shows as Transformers and Netflix's House of Cards, to form a joint venture or partnership to produce affordable cameras. A RED's 8K camera now sells for around $30,000."

Hmmmm .... we shall see.

See:

https://asia.nikkei.com/Markets/Nik...Smartphone-Demand-Weakens-Nikkei-Asian-Review

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Hmmm... I guess I am always will to take someone at their word until I find evidence they aren't being truthful. In this case, I can't imagine this guy would make a public statement about talking with RED if it were an outright lie; he'd have to know he'd be found out. We'll see... sounds intriguing.

 

[Brian Merlen]

It's probably hydrogen one I'm betting

 

[L. Langer]

I think it was just a reference to HYDROGEN, but given that Mr. J-RED just got back from visiting Shenzen, where FOXCONNs main manufacturing facilities are located for manufacturing of phones and cameras, anything is possible.

 

[Thomas Koch]

Jarred did just have a whirlwind trip in China, so I’m guessing this is a real thing. Hoping for a c100 type body and weight for handheld and gimbal. With XLR inputs.

 

[RobMNeilson]

Man, it sure is a whole lot cheaper to use some of that near slave labor aint it? Can I get a cheap refurb model deal if a worker has it in their lab coat while they jump from the roof?

 

[Eric Lange]

Maybe .... at least according to this article published today in "Nikkei Asian Review:"


"We will make cameras that will shoot professional-quality films in 8K resolution but at only a third of current prices and a third of current camera sizes," Foxconn Chairman Terry Gou told reporters in Taipei following the company's annual employee party before the Chinese New Year. 8K ultra-high definition resolution has become the benchmark standard for digital television and cinematography.

Gou said he is in talks with RED Digital Cinema, whose cameras are used in the filming of such hit films and TV shows as Transformers and Netflix's House of Cards, to form a joint venture or partnership to produce affordable cameras. A RED's 8K camera now sells for around $30,000."

Hmmmm .... we shall see.

See:

https://asia.nikkei.com/Markets/Nik...Smartphone-Demand-Weakens-Nikkei-Asian-Review

I think a lot of this comes about as Foxconn acquired Sharp's semiconductor plant ( Taiwan) in 2016, said plant also happens to manufacture sensors etc.

Foxconn is planning pretty massive expansions globally and the deal with the Wisconsin Governor to build a $10 B (Billion with a B) liquid crystal display panel factory in the Midwest is pretty eerie to say the least. I always joked that the money we borrow from China would only be repaid if we let China have Wisconson lol.

I think with HYDROGEN and LEIA tech there is a Chinese component to some of the tech/IP and other elements. It used to be we all had to be a bit defensive against Chinese manufacturing practices and now we have to be more friendly yet circumspect with particular Chinese partnerships now.

Like the article is saying that Foxconn is trying to lessen it's reliance on Apple as the profit margins are razor thin, so seeks to get its fingers into more diverse and profitable partnerships/sectors of various markets all around the world. Now Foxconn seeks to get into "Cloud computing" and AI and other buzzwords.

So $30K camera? That's the Epic W with Helium 8k sensor. Not a $50K Weapon nor a $80K Weapon Monstro VV.

But on the other hand maybe Foxconn/Acquired Sharp semiconductor factory will also roll out Helium module for HYDROGEN/H1.

To me this all points to HYDROGEN being very very big indeed + possible expansion of LEIA tech.


The other thing is that RED (I believe) is going to continue its relentless march towards modularity and obsolescence obsolete principal. Jarred Land had mentioned in various posts a number of times about the possibility of future systems where the sensor itself is a separate thin module block that you could slip into your camera and upgrade yourself or switch out between thin sensor cartridges or plates for different sensors (perhaps of different formats or spectral capability (B+W? )or frame rates etc.)

If growth and competitive capabilities are planned for RED this would all seem pretty logical I think.

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@Bill S (Thanks for digging that up).

 

[Zeb B]

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

It looks like China is winning.....

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Or Jim Jannard sells RED digital cinema camera company to Foxconn?

 

[Eric Lange]

I don't think that emoticon looks gutted or fore forlorn enough at all... lol

 

[Eric Lange]

I think there's a larger picture and history to all this too.

I am never completely able to gauge how RED "Enterprises" feels about SONY or ARRI.

How much bad blood/axes to grind or whether there is always an "Open channel"?

In the past RED trade secrets were stolen and passed to ARRI (Germany) and charges pressed with the individual concerned.

In the past there have been IP related Lawsuits between RED and SONY that were settled out of court.

So I never really know whether SONY and ARRI and maybe others are "Persona non grata"/near pariah status or whether these are entities that command mutual respect for the sake of business? (Cough, cough...).

[I think it is important to bear in mind there are very few companies in the world that have the whole range of technological and manufacturing and product distribution and promotion capabilities from "Top" to "Tail" (beginning to end) ALL under one umbrella or one "Roof", especially for the manufacture of cost effective CMOS based large sensors (and other key semiconductors) on a large scale + plus important products built around those. REDCODE is very valuable].


The whole thing with the possibility of Foxconn and RED partnerships and licensing etc. in respect of SONY and ARRI and other players (Even Apple), remind me of what horses do in a field/paddock when turned out together.

With horses there is a definite pecking order in the herd. If the horses are male, be they stallions or geldings usually the older most "Puffed up" and biggest and most belligerent horse is usually number 1 in the herd. But almost without fail the smallest and craftiest pony in the herd (ponies are notoriously more crafty and intelligent than their big 'ole counterparts) said pony becomes the best friend and "Pal" of the number 1 horse; so they share food and hang out together and even the big horse gives the small pony shade (literally and figuratively). So indirectly the "Runt" of the herd actually becomes near number 1 in status and usually the number one horse and clever little pony's wants and needs are pretty well aligned.

So strategically if RED is doing such a thing* then that is an amazing run-around/PLAY, to gain massive leverage over SONY, ARRI and even APPLE and many other players not even mentioned.

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* Caveat this is all highly speculative. Just observations from a fly on the wall from very very far away lol.

--> Until other key partnerships are announced it's hard to say what the landscape in totality will be, so maybe even former "Sparring partners/"Near enemies" may become allies in all this too ?

 

[Zeb B]

Or Jim Jannard sells RED digital cinema camera company to Foxconn?

Naah. A two tiered product offering:
1. NASA / Panavision / Custom
2. Mass Market 8K

This has nothing to do with Arri / Canon - it has to do with looking at what Apple, Tesla, DJI etc are doing to dominate their markets with critical mass / economies of scale. There's nothing magical about what Elon Musk does - he just does it a 1/10th the cost of existing offerings. That is the reason for the Giga Factory. Oakley was a mass market company who designed in the US and offshored the manufacturing very successfully.

It was a fun ride being a part of an exclusive club of folks who are in the top 1% of the Craft

 

[Curtis boggs]

So strategically if RED is doing such a thing* then that is an amazing run-around/PLAY, to gain massive leverage over SONY, ARRI and even APPLE and many other players not even mentioned.

Would mean a HUGE devalue of anyone owning 8k cameras currently

 

[Michael Hastings]

Would mean a HUGE devalue of anyone owning 8k cameras currently

Unfortunately, that's inevitable - it won't be that hard or too long before 8k sensors are in cellphones, gopro style cameras, regular video cameras and dSLRs, etc. The hope for us 8K Red owners will be that the overall picture quality and professional features of our cameras significantly exceeds that of the low cost options. Red has routinely introduced new cameras in a shorter time/ROI cycle than Arri and others that greatly affected the resale value of the existing models. Basically you just have to be happy with the price/performance ratio of your Red camera at the time you buy it and analyze the future of your own business model if direct monetary ROI is important to you.

To offset any "obsolescence/obsolete" frustration, it is important to remember that any Red Camera you buy today is capable of making very high quality movies and will be for years to come.

 

[Eric Lange]

Would mean a HUGE devalue of anyone owning 8k cameras currently

I don't necessarily think so... I FEEL your concern with that idea.

The Hydrogen module won't replace "Weapon" (systems) or even the $30K Epic-W...

Jim tried to state that the Helium module for HYDROGEN is a smidge/slightly somewhat lesser capability than even "Sister" Rave/Scarlet-W.


Apart from HYDROGEN module; the leaked or indiscrete "Report" on this claims or quotes the head of Foxconn saying $30K in reference to expensive camera and 1/3 rd (one third the price) that would be $10K.

Our high ticket items are machine tools which singularly can cost between $300K to $500K ++ And it is pretty much understood as soon as you invest in such systems that other more capable systems for less $ will be launched. So the argument usually goes if you have a "tool" that's working for you then there could be a pre-planned ROI. [Now I See that resonates with Michael Hasting's point too.].

I have thought about buying Helium based cameras just to get the jump on what can be made for (content wise for HYDROGEN). In April WE will all know a lot more. It could be two or three years before something like a $10K 8k Helium based "rig"/camera of some kind would be launched outside of HYDROGEN.

On the other hand I might be interested in purchasing a bunch of second hand Epic-Ws 8k (when appropriate).

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I have to admit if I was RED I'd be slightly pissed that the appropriate well timed joint announcement was not made rather than somewhat (allegedly) indiscreet or private statements (before a company party/New Year's celebration) having been mopped-up by "Big ears" and put out there in the public domain. And also the larger plan has not been released. A bit sticky/ikky.

 

[andrewhake]

The speculation on this site is absolutely obscene.

 

[Phil Holland]

Would mean a HUGE devalue of anyone owning 8k cameras currently

Well yes, if "that" camera came out literally today, was the same sensor size with comparable image quality, and similar frame rates.

However, this is just an announcement of what's to come down the line.


RED has been very much trying to broaden their scale and scope in the sense of who they make products for and what price points they can hit. This was first shown obviously with the RED One's initial price point, but further exemplified by the time the premium Epic and "little sister" Scarlet came out in the wild west DSMC days. Further exemplified still in the world of DSMC2 with Raven, Scarlet, Epic, and Weapon. Not to mention the "beyond that custom builds" like Xenomorph, Ranger, and Bayhem bodies (and a couple other bad boys in there).

I think the $2000 price point is a bit sensational in the article. The price point that they are actually referencing in relationship to competitors in that realm would likely be in the $2500-$5000 range depending on things, but hell what do I know.

You guys are rather silly for thinking that RED is killing any market if you're only "K-centric" you already have a host of 4K and 4K+ cameras "down there", but of course as we all know it's not just about the K nor the cheapest thing you can get out there for any sort of standard production work and that does not allude to it being the right tool for the job. RED might not even be the first one to bring inexpensive 8K to the masses, but it does look like they are focused on it for sure and it is nice to be first.

To add some crazy sanity to the mix. There is attraction for smaller form factor professional level cameras. Soderberg is a rather clear example of that, though much of that POV at the moment has little to do with the "art of photography" and the creative choices that surround it.

Keep in mind that a DSMC2 brain is sub-3.5lbs unrigged and anywhere between 6-16lbs for compact setups while staring in the face of recent 17lb unrigged camera bodies that do arguably less. That DSMC to DSMC2 transition saved about 2-3lbs on most people's builds, actually more like 3-5lbs in typical use cases when you think about things like top plates you may or may not use, but certainly needed to before.

 

[Eric Lange]

Well yes, if "that" camera came out literally today, was the same sensor size with comparable image quality, and similar frame rates.

However, this is just an announcement of what's to come down the line.


RED has been very much trying to broaden their scale and scope in the sense of who they make products for and what price points they can hit. This was first shown obviously with the RED One's initial price point, but further exemplified by the time the premium Epic and "little sister" Scarlet came out in the wild west DSMC days. Further exemplified still in the world of DSMC2 with Raven, Scarlet, Epic, and Weapon. Not to mention the "beyond that custom builds" like Xenomorph, Ranger, and Bayhem bodies (and a couple other bad boys in there).

I think the $2000 price point is a bit sensational in the article. The price point that they are actually referencing in relationship to competitors in that realm would likely be in the $2500-$5000 range depending on things, but hell what do I know.

You guys are rather silly for thinking that RED is killing any market if you're only "K-centric" you already have a host of 4K and 4K+ cameras "down there", but of course as we all know it's not just about the K nor the cheapest thing you can get out there for any sort of standard production work and that does not allude to it being the right tool for the job. RED might not even be the first one to bring inexpensive 8K to the masses, but it does look like they are focused on it for sure and it is nice to be first.

To add some crazy sanity to the mix. There is attraction for smaller form factor professional level cameras. Soderberg is a rather clear example of that, though much of that POV at the moment has little to do with the "art of photography" and the creative choices that surround it.

Keep in mind that a DSMC2 brain is sub-3.5lbs unrigged and anywhere between 6-16lbs for compact setups while staring in the face of recent 17lb unrigged camera bodies that do arguably less. That DSMC to DSMC2 transition saved about 2-3lbs on most people's builds, actually more like 3-5lbs in typical use cases when you think about things like top plates you may or may not use, but certainly needed to before.

I think the $2000 price point is a bit sensational in the article.

^^^I totally agree, that statement comes from a different IMO much more speculative article or one that extrapolates without first hand evidence more than the other article.

There is attraction for smaller form factor professional level cameras

^^^ I really hope/pray that that is the case as a lot of the other offerings out there are a near "Car-crash" in terms of form factor and make things much more complicated than they have to be so frankly I would really welcome well thought out better form factors and better mechanical engineering for "What's Next"... I.e. Narrow/ long cameras (symmetrical build) rather than very asymmetric wide and flatter cameras. It's ok to pay more for better engineering for professional applications.

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The other thing this underscores is how BIG HYDROGEN is going to be... I knew it was aiming to become "Quite big" but I suspect it's going to be Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay bigger than I ever could have imagined.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Or Jim Jannard sells RED digital cinema camera company to Foxconn?

Likelihood = zero.

Would mean a HUGE devalue of anyone owning 8k cameras currently

Likelihood that Red would undercut its own high-end segment = zero.